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Old 07-31-2009, 10:28 AM   #21
arnoldo
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I've wondered if Jesus of Nazareth can be compared to Uncle Sam, a personification of an abstract ideal.
He is presented as a concrete man, in whom others saw many flaws:
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a wine drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners.--Mt 11:19.
He himself refused to be identified as the personification of the ideal:
Why do you ask me about the Good? The Good is One.--Mt 19:17.
He is indeed presented as a concrete man in the synoptics gospels and later characterized less concrete in the gnostic gospels. Thus if we follow the analogy of the character of popeye, the character of Jesus was first based on a historical person then later as a cartoonish figure. To relate the analogy to the NT writings; the synoptic gospel were the first writings which were later satirized by the gnostic writings. An example which supports the HPP is the gThomas which satirizes the mandate of the spread of the gospel to India; which the gnostic knew was it's true origin.

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According to the lot, therefore, India fell unto Judas Thomas, which is also the twin: but he would not go, saying that by reason of the weakness of the flesh he could not travel, and 'I am an Hebrew man; how can I go amongst the Indians and preach the truth?' And as he thus reasoned and spake, the Saviour appeared unto him by night and saith to him: Fear not, Thomas, go thou unto India and preach the word there, for my grace is with thee. But he would not obey, saying: Whither thou wouldest send me, send me, but elsewhere, for unto the Indians I will not go.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...ctsthomas.html
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:32 AM   #22
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The earliest Christian writings were the epistles, not the gospels.
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Old 07-31-2009, 06:52 PM   #23
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The earliest "christian packaged writings" are simply a collage of the verbatim misappropriation of Greek poets talking about Zeus, such as "In Him we live and move and have our being.".

One should have no doubt that the NT canon was cloned from earlier extant wisdom without the appropriate attributions.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:08 PM   #24
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Popeye, like Bugs, Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Captain Marvel, Peanuts, etc - are 100% kosher characters, invented as an escapism from persecution. Superman represents a Messianic figure and Clark Kent is a Jew in hiding. Olive Oyl, who is not Jewish, nonetheless serves spinach to her man - because Popeye is I YAM WOT I YAM - UNERSTAN?
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Old 08-01-2009, 09:44 PM   #25
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P. E Sailor was a composite chractacter....
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:45 AM   #26
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Popeye, like Bugs, Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Captain Marvel, Peanuts, etc - are 100% kosher characters, invented as an escapism from persecution. Superman represents a Messianic figure and Clark Kent is a Jew in hiding. Olive Oyl, who is not Jewish, nonetheless serves spinach to her man - because Popeye is I YAM WOT I YAM - UNERSTAN?
There's a great book, Men of Tomorrow (or via: amazon.co.uk), which looks at the origins of the superhero idea, and the origins of American superhero comics generally. It does seem to have been an overwhelmingly Jewish immigrant phenomenon. Comics were invented by the progeny of Jewish immigrants who fled persecution in Europe, and who came into a bright new world of opportunity. When those kids were young, everything seemed possible, and they were enamoured of the possibilities opened up by science. (The superhero is, fundamentally, a "science hero", as the contemporary comics genius Alan Moore has it. The thing to note is, instead of divine powers, they have scientifically-produced powers.)

But it's notable that the superhero is basically a Messiah figure. The ultimate geek-turned-god (and turned into a god because of geekiness, i.e. science), who will kick sand back into the faces of the bullies of this world.

It's the myth, not just of a downtrodden people, but of a downtrodden sub-group within that downtrodden people (i.e. young Jewish geeks, who at that time were in physical proximity to tough Jewish "alphas" - i.e. the soon-to-be Jewish racketeers and gangsters they grew up with on the harsh streets of New York, who bullied them, with whom they yet had to find some sort of day-to-day accommodation).

The whole thing can also be looked at from a Nietzschean perspective - e.g. ressentiment, the revenge of the the somewhat malformed, geeky geek, on those who are naturally gifted with physical beauty, presence and alpha-male-ness. (Hence also the slightly homosexual angle to the superhero idea. It's notable that one of the few important non-Jews involved in the origins of comics, was the inventor of Wonder Woman, whose mythos is slightly pervy in a straight BDSM sense.)

I should note, though, I don't think that Simon & Shuster were influenced by Popeye - the book referenced above goes into the antecedents, which are mainly from the early versions of pulps (they were called something else in the very early days, can't remember) and very early s-f.

Personally, I think Simon & Shuster were close to geniuses. The superhero idea is an amazing, and highly durable mythos that almost everyone loves - partly because we all feel (I think, deep down inside) that it's sort of a prophecy of what the future holds for us. (Again, the optimism that science engenders, the sense that anything is possible.) Or rather, it represents a general human dream of power, of the kind that actually partly fuels scientific advancement.
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Old 08-06-2009, 06:33 AM   #27
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Default Popeye, Superman and Jesus

Hi gurugeorge,

Yes, definitely the messiah idea does link the Jesus character to the Superman character.

There are naturally a number of influences on Siegel and Schuster from pulp novels and early science fiction. However, Popeye was perhaps the most popular comic strip and cartoon character of the early 30's. It was certainly part of the atmosphere that Siegel and Schuster, who certainly read "the Funnies" and went to movies regularly, grew up in. Both being born in 1914 and living in Cleveland, Ohio, they would have been 15 when Popeye started appearing in a Sunday comic strip and 19 when he started appearing in cartoons in movie theaters in July, 1933. It was in 1934 when Siegel came up with the Superman hero concept that we know today.

In the same way, we would have to assume that anybody in their early twenties who writes a novel with a wizard character today would be influenced by Harry Potter, or any young writer of spy novels from the mid-60's must have been influenced by James Bond.

It is perhaps just a coincidence that the same animation studio that produced the Popeye cartoons in 1933, Fleischer Studios, Inc., produced the first Superman cartoons in 1941.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

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Popeye, like Bugs, Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Captain Marvel, Peanuts, etc - are 100% kosher characters, invented as an escapism from persecution. Superman represents a Messianic figure and Clark Kent is a Jew in hiding. Olive Oyl, who is not Jewish, nonetheless serves spinach to her man - because Popeye is I YAM WOT I YAM - UNERSTAN?
There's a great book, Men of Tomorrow, which looks at the origins of the superhero idea, and the origins of American superhero comics generally. It does seem to have been an overwhelmingly Jewish immigrant phenomenon. Comics were invented by the progeny of Jewish immigrants who fled persecution in Europe, and who came into a bright new world of opportunity. When those kids were young, everything seemed possible, and they were enamoured of the possibilities opened up by science. (The superhero is, fundamentally, a "science hero", as the contemporary comics genius Alan Moore has it. The thing to note is, instead of divine powers, they have scientifically-produced powers.)

But it's notable that the superhero is basically a Messiah figure. The ultimate geek-turned-god (and turned into a god because of geekiness, i.e. science), who will kick sand back into the faces of the bullies of this world.

It's the myth, not just of a downtrodden people, but of a downtrodden sub-group within that downtrodden people (i.e. young Jewish geeks, who at that time were in physical proximity to tough Jewish "alphas" - i.e. the soon-to-be Jewish racketeers and gangsters they grew up with on the harsh streets of New York, who bullied them, with whom they yet had to find some sort of day-to-day accommodation).

The whole thing can also be looked at from a Nietzschean perspective - e.g. ressentiment, the revenge of the the somewhat malformed, geeky geek, on those who are naturally gifted with physical beauty, presence and alpha-male-ness. (Hence also the slightly homosexual angle to the superhero idea. It's notable that one of the few important non-Jews involved in the origins of comics, was the inventor of Wonder Woman, whose mythos is slightly pervy in a straight BDSM sense.)

I should note, though, I don't think that Simon & Shuster were influenced by Popeye - the book referenced above goes into the antecedents, which are mainly from the early versions of pulps (they were called something else in the very early days, can't remember) and very early s-f.

Personally, I think Simon & Shuster were close to geniuses. The superhero idea is an amazing, and highly durable mythos that almost everyone loves - partly because we all feel (I think, deep down inside) that it's sort of a prophecy of what the future holds for us. (Again, the optimism that science engenders, the sense that anything is possible.) Or rather, it represents a general human dream of power, of the kind that actually partly fuels scientific advancement.
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Old 08-06-2009, 05:13 PM   #28
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Personally, I think Simon & Shuster were close to geniuses.
Woops, brainfart - sorry, that should of course have been Siegel and Shuster, not a misspelled variant of the publishing house
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Old 08-06-2009, 08:46 PM   #29
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Hi gurugeorge,

Don't worry about it. As long as people know who you're talking about, that's what really counts.

Among the many mistakes I have made, I referred to Jerry Siegel as Joel Siegel, the film critic, wrote Clement of Alexandria when I meant Clement of Rome, and I've written Polycrates instead of Polycarp a few times.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

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Personally, I think Simon & Shuster were close to geniuses.
Woops, brainfart - sorry, that should of course have been Siegel and Shuster, not a misspelled variant of the publishing house
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:34 AM   #30
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Popeye, like Bugs, Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Captain Marvel, Peanuts, etc - are 100% kosher characters, invented as an escapism from persecution. Superman represents a Messianic figure and Clark Kent is a Jew in hiding. Olive Oyl, who is not Jewish, nonetheless serves spinach to her man - because Popeye is I YAM WOT I YAM - UNERSTAN?
There's a great book, Men of Tomorrow (or via: amazon.co.uk), which looks at the origins of the superhero idea, and the origins of American superhero comics generally. It does seem to have been an overwhelmingly Jewish immigrant phenomenon. Comics were invented by the progeny of Jewish immigrants who fled persecution in Europe, and who came into a bright new world of opportunity. When those kids were young, everything seemed possible, and they were enamoured of the possibilities opened up by science. (The superhero is, fundamentally, a "science hero", as the contemporary comics genius Alan Moore has it. The thing to note is, instead of divine powers, they have scientifically-produced powers.)

But it's notable that the superhero is basically a Messiah figure. The ultimate geek-turned-god (and turned into a god because of geekiness, i.e. science), who will kick sand back into the faces of the bullies of this world.

It's the myth, not just of a downtrodden people, but of a downtrodden sub-group within that downtrodden people (i.e. young Jewish geeks, who at that time were in physical proximity to tough Jewish "alphas" - i.e. the soon-to-be Jewish racketeers and gangsters they grew up with on the harsh streets of New York, who bullied them, with whom they yet had to find some sort of day-to-day accommodation).

The whole thing can also be looked at from a Nietzschean perspective - e.g. ressentiment, the revenge of the the somewhat malformed, geeky geek, on those who are naturally gifted with physical beauty, presence and alpha-male-ness. (Hence also the slightly homosexual angle to the superhero idea. It's notable that one of the few important non-Jews involved in the origins of comics, was the inventor of Wonder Woman, whose mythos is slightly pervy in a straight BDSM sense.)

I should note, though, I don't think that Simon & Shuster were influenced by Popeye - the book referenced above goes into the antecedents, which are mainly from the early versions of pulps (they were called something else in the very early days, can't remember) and very early s-f.

Personally, I think Simon & Shuster were close to geniuses. The superhero idea is an amazing, and highly durable mythos that almost everyone loves - partly because we all feel (I think, deep down inside) that it's sort of a prophecy of what the future holds for us. (Again, the optimism that science engenders, the sense that anything is possible.) Or rather, it represents a general human dream of power, of the kind that actually partly fuels scientific advancement.

Sounds like a great coffee table book. There's a book which also sources words such as HIT [as in a song hit], zanny, kapow, etc and how they became expressions, prior to the time of phonographs. More amazing than comics and movies, are the American music and song hits - MY FAIR LADY, WEST SIDE STORY, SOUND OF MUSIC, FAME, ANNIE GET YOUR GUN, SOUTH PACIFIC, NO BIZ LIKE SHOWBIZ, JAZZ SINGER, most of Elvis' hits, even WHITE CHRISTMAS, are Jewish immigrant works. The biggest musical works are by Jews and blacks - because America gave them the first op to show themselves. I wonder who came up with the term ROCK, which predated ROCK AND ROLL.
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