Larsguy47

Because certain evidence is out there. It's just an academic look at what IS there in terms of the limited comparison.

Larsguy47

spin

And only guessing.

(And the third word is not he-dalet-taw, but chet-dalet-tet.)

I've already indicated that there is no word for "hour".

If B++ means "sixth" (rather than "was ashamed"), the text could mean "sixth day", which is also problematical, but found in the literature.

Hathor is not present in the text, only Reshep. Bringing Egyptian ideas into a Ugaritic text seems uncalled for. Reshep as Reshep fits perfectly with Shepesh, so you should drop the Egyptian intrusion as nothing to do with anything.

Just so that you know, the sun in Ugarit is feminine.

Grammatically it's "Shepesh entered the gate of Reshep". (That at the wrong time made it an eclipse.)

No, you're done. You got caught insinuating stuff into the text.

Where did you get this stuff about Reshep being a bull??

I can understand your running.


spin

RED DAVE

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
The prophecy that you have referred to does not refer to "Jews lived in the 21 countries of Europe that would be occupied by Germany during the war." It refers to all Jews. What you have done is <edit> select figures that support your preconception.

Bullshit like this is at the heart of your method.

RED DAVE

Larsguy47

You're not in a position to indicate that simply because "btt" is unclear. This particular person, who would have certainly been trained in an Egyptian university, adapting his own shorthand to reference this eclipse event, could have used this reference to indeed represent "hour", which is not a concept in this language usually. Thus if this may be the only reference we have of this term, in which cast, "btt" does mean "sixth hour", even if it is an abbreviation.

This is where the EGYPTIAN influence comes in. The Egyptians had a concept of the "hour" and the count began at midnight. This is astro-shorthand. All he needs to record are the specifics. Which is the time of this event and the zodiac sign. The main reference, actually is the LIVER READING. This is just the supplement to that.

Now IF "btt" was used by this individual to simply reference the HOUR of this eclipse, then we can test that theory by the timing of the 1375BCE eclipse. So the question is whether or not he's making a reference to the sixth hour or not for the 1375BCE eclipse during the reign of Akhenaten? That eclipse in 1375BCE indeed took place between 5am and 6am, which would be the sixth hour. Thus "btt" becomes "sixth hour" by definition.

No Hathor is not present, but the "gate" in reference is of the remale gender. The sun enters "HER gate." So the gate belongs to a female. The concept of the sun associated with "gate" though, is so particularly Egyptian since it describes the sun being swallowed every night by the god-DES Hathor and traveling through these 12 gates, emerging through her vulva, the last gate, in a rebirth at sunrise.

Thus the "gates" in reference to the traveling of the sun in Egyptian astronomy is a feminine gate, that of Hathor. That explains for us, therefore, "HER" gate. So it doesn't mention Hathor by name, but this would have been such a common reference it didn't have to. Bottom line, the "gates" associated with the sun's movement in Egyptian astronomy, the ruling power over Ugarit at this time, belong to a goddess, a woman. So "HER gate" becomes pertinent to understanding this reference. So that's the connection to Hathor. It's presumed, therefore, the reference to "HER gate" was that of the goddess Hathor.

Just so you know, since every noble was educated in Egypt in Egyptian universities and these vassal city-states had magistrates and representatives from Egypt in residence, the gates the sun travel through are FEMALE. Furthermore, it is not the sun is feminized, but the GATE is what is feminized. So if you want a female sun going through a female gate, that's fine too. But it's not the gender of the sun that is in focus here, but that of the gate.

No. You missed a key element. If this is how it is read, then it would be:

"Shepesh entered HER gate..."

But we don't know what this person's shorthand conveyed to him. The sun entering HER gate is a complete concept. I'm considering this as a reference to sunrise. Reshep may have just been listed as the zodiac sign reference.

It's just like our concept of the date: 03/25/2007. When someone sees that, they know it's a reference to a date. IT doesn't say "month" 3 or "day" 25. It's abbreviated and understood in its own context.

An eclipse occurred and a liver reading was done and a tablet was created giving the details of the eclipse and the liver reading. It's very brief. But particularly since RESHEP is male and doesn't fit "HER" gate, my interpretation is that the "sun entering her gate" was a common concept and reference for sunrise, and Reshep is just noted as the zodiac house or Taurus, and this writer would have understood that.

What you have going against you is this.

FR Stephenson has already dated this to 1375BCE. This occurs during the Amarna Period, which is around this time. The question as to whether "btt" means "sixth" or not considering the option to apply that to the "hour" is an academic comparison. That is, did the eclipse of 1375BCE occur during the sixth hour, between 5am and 6am? The answer is: YES.

Same goes with whether the Egyptian concept of Reshep as the bull and the "Lord/Bull of Heaven" was a reference by this individual for the zodiac house of Taurus is also academically tested by whether or not the sun is rising in Taurus or not. The answer is: YES.

So once you already have the dating, it's not that hard to use that to help understand the textual references to the event. That is, instead of the other way around.


I have this somewhere. There's some place on the net that shows it and I have it somewhere in my archives but don't know exactly where. I'll try to find it for you and post it. But the image of Reshep is shown as a bull with a tassle and that's the ID of the Traurus bull in Mesopotamia. But also, his title in Egyptian texts is "Lord of Heaven" and Lord is based upon "Bel/Baal" which means Lord, but it's exchangeable with "Bull".


I FOUND IT!





The above photos to with this caption:

Bull-headed god seated on a Winged Sphinx throne (understood by some scholars to be a Cherubbim throne), with raised hand for a benediction/blessing, staff in other hand. Incense burned before him. He wears the White crown of Pharaoh with a tassel, rather like the crown worn by the Late Bronze Age god Reshep (a Syrian war-god, whose names may mean "burning," as in fever, a god of plague).

ALSO:

Here's a quote about the sun in Egyptian legend:

Joan of Bark

Then why are theists constantly trying to use science to support their beliefs? They should just say: "science is a moot point; this all has to do with miracles and emotions."

spin

There is no word in the text for "hour". I'm certainly in a position to say that.

Uh-huh.

Crap.

The text at least literally says "on the sixth day..."

Convenient, but the eclipse has been redated by de Jong and van Soldt (Nature 339, 1989, p.238-240) to 5th March 1223BCE. (And there are apparently later datings as well.)

"[R]emale"s don't have gates. You are stretching the metaphor somewhat.

There are different gates for different things. But I'm glad to see that you've moved on from the female gate business. Yes, it was fairly normal to talk about gates in the context of the moon and the sun. Just check out Enoch's astronomical book.

Case inconclusive at best. Plain silly at worst.

So you seem to think that scribes trained in Akkadian and Semitic languages were trained in Egypt, huh?

Doesn't work. The -h is probably directional. And you would be leaving Reshep all by itself outside a clause. You have no reason to do that. (And the warning "beware" on the other side is a clause to itself.)

And another interpretation gives the clause to read "Shepesh entered with her gateman, Reshep."

Oh, so because you don't know the hypothesized shorthand of the writer, you can hypothesize anything you like about it. Convenient.

There's no point in such retrojection.

As I've indicated earlier, you're not playing with the full deck.

Coincidentally with the dating provided by Sawyer and Stephenson. If one goes with later analyses that date falls by the way.

Also, Sawyer and Stephenson had no trouble with the notion of the "sixth day". It's only your fanciful claims about the way time was measured (and represented) at Ugarit, for which you have no evidence, that allows you to opt for this sixth hour stuff.

Christ, Reshep was a minor god. The bull of heaven was El and he's called Bull El in Ugaritic literature.



We are in Ugarit, not Egypt.


spin

post tenebras lux

Hi Larsguy47, could you kindly explain/reference where you got the idea that the egyptian day started at midnight? I'd always understood that it started at dawn (unlike the hebrews, of course).

Given the hassle involved, and the apparent lack of usefulness: why would they want to start their day at midnight?

Doug Shaver

It has been my observation that to an apologist, the only "correct application" of any argument in defense of the Bible is one that assumes its conclusion.

Larsguy47

No, more like postdating "matching" the words to fit the eclipse.

Thanks!


And I indicated this could be a unique, adaptive reference for the Egyptian concept for "hour." Who would have used this except an astronomer, perhaps?

No, the "day" is already apparent, the day of the new moon. It wouldn't be so redundant. And "sixth" would be a general reference relating to the context. If "sixth" is understood as "sixth day" in some textual reference then it would be a general reference. By the way, do you actually have a link for that reference? I'd very much like to review where "B++" is sixth day. ? Thanks.

"WAS ASHAMED": The argument against "was ashamed" here is dismissed since while we understand that an eclipse would suggest the sun or moon being ashamed, a direct reference to either the sun or the moon would made sense. However, this is trying to suggest this reference is for the entire day. Why be so imprecise in referring to a solar eclipse. Why not do the natural thing and just says the "sun was put to shame"? The whole day of the new moon being put to shame shows like some disastrous event that occurred on that calendar in general, not a phrase that would be used to indirectly refer to a solar eclipse for that day. So, sorry, not a good match. Whereas sixth in reference to the hour makes perfect sense in the order of this reference: hour, day, month. The chance to be specific about the "hour" of the eclipse would certainly have been reasonable in being more specific about the detail of this eclipse. And, as I noted, IF we presume that B++ is sixth, and the dating is 1375BCE from the Amarna Period, then that eclipse would need to actually match that hour, specifically, that is between 5-6 a.m. Which it does. So why insist upon rushing away from the apparent or obvious here?

My point entirely. From the time of Thuthmosis III (I believe) when Egypt began to conquer Canaan, all the nobles were sent into Egypt to become wise men and Egypt placed it's own magistrates in these cities. Thus concepts and expression of astronomical events in terms of Egyptian concepts would have been quite natural. Ugarit was Egypt at this time. "Uncalled for"? How do you know it wasn't the Egyptian magistrate assigned to Ugarit who actually wrote this? Egypt was the most proximal culture of influence at this time, to say it is "uncalled for" simply would not apply.

Sorry, but Shepesh is SUN and Reshep was long ago adopted into the Egyptian pantheon, long ago with the title of "Lord of Heaven" which is synonymous with "Bull of Heaven", the formal name for Taurus. Even if this association was loose, it would fit this text since the most basic reference to any eclipse in an astronomical text, besides the date, is the zodiac house it is associated with. On this date in Hiyarru the sun was in Taurus. So the very timing of the eclipse would suggest to us to compare aspects of Reshep to Taurus. But, of course, you would have had to have likely read hundreds of astronomical texts to realize this perhaps. I have.

Not if this is simple shorthand for what would be obvious to an astronomer-shaman. My contention is that this simply records the BASICS for this liver reading. The very basics which is, time and place: hour, day, month, and the rising of the sun in Taurus at sunrise. The back records the liver reading as negative.

His title is "Lord of Heaven" which is "Bel/Bull of Heaven" the title for Taurus in Eastern astronomical texts. The association is a natural one for the concept of the god as well. The name suggests, "hot" or "burning" which interpreters have associated with "fever" or plague or famine. But "hot" and "burning" when applied to an emotion would relate to anger, i.e. "hot headed", "burning anger", and Taurus is an angry bull, a bull with extended horns. So Reshep as being hot and angry is a perfect match for Taurus.

Larsguy47

Larsguy47

Well, of course. Why would an "incorrect application" prove anything? As they say, "the proof is in the pudding"!

In this case, what I'm saying is that this concept of the 70 jubilees, a week of jubilees defining a week of seven days of 490 years each is FIXED by the 70th week during which Jesus first appears. It is fixed. Once the week is fixed, then the implied relative dates for that week are fixed too. In this case, the last jubilee of the week which begins the 70th jubilee week, the last 49 years, is considered very special. It's like a super sabbath event jubilee. What better year to have the Jews fulfill the prophecy of finally regaining control over their Promised Land, at least by this date, if not already? Once this premise has been established though, whether this is CORRECT or not, would hinge upon whether the FIXED date for the last jubilee matched the year the Jews were restored to their homeland. So it is now an academic comparison to see if this is "correct" or not. If the third day of this week ends in 36CE, you need only calculate to the end of the week, 4 days later, 1960 years. 1960 plus 36 = 1996. If 1996 ends the last day, it also ends the 70th "jubilee week" (7 x 7 years). The jubilee is the first year of the week, celebrating the 50th after the previous 49. Thus the last jubilee of the week is 49 years earlier than 1996, which is 1947. So if this application is "correct" and the prophecy is fulfilled, then 1947 should have in some significant way been linked to the Jews regaining their homeland. Of course, November 30, 1947 is the year of the Partition Agreement granting portions of Palestine to the Jews. So, the actual fulfillment confirms the "correct" application.

Same with the Exodus. 36CE as the last year of the third day would fix the Exodus to 1386BCE. When we look back to see if this fits archaeologically or historically or astronomically in either way, we win thrice! The KTU 1.78 dated to 1375BCE, year 12 of Akhenaten (as it had been by others) would date the 1st of Akhenaten to 1386BCE. Manetho's reference to when Joseph came into Egypt during the time of Apophis, used to date the Exodus 215 years after the 25th of Apophis dates the Exodus to the 1st of Akhenaten. So that works for 1386BCE, combining the astronomical reference with the historical reference. Finally, this works well archaeologically since Kathleen Kenyon dates the fall of Jericho by the Israelites between 1350-1325BCE meaning the Exodus 40 years later must fall between 1390-1365BCE. So this is perfectly in line with the pottery dating and archaeological stratigraphy for when Jericho fell by the Israelites. So another confirmation.

Larsguy47