Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 10-16-2006, 12:05 PM

There seems to be some design implications creeping in - qur'an looks more authentic than koran - which means on IIDB we should use koran!

gstafleu · 10-16-2006, 12:24 PM

Pob14, thanks for theWiki link. So it means "recitation."

And then we have:

Quote:

Compilations of the Qu'ran began under the Caliph Umar, but it was Uthman who decided upon a definitive copy and destroyed all other versions.

What is it with these religious types and destroying anything they don't like? Even more deja vu all over again.

Gerard

Toto · 10-16-2006, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

There seems to be some design implications creeping in - qur'an looks more authentic than koran - which means on IIDB we should use koran!

Qur'an is considered a more accurate transliteration. The first letter is a qaff, which is not exactly a k, and there is an aspiration-type sound after the r. There is no official, accepted, Arabic-western transliteration, probably because there is no governmental agency with enough authority to enforce it.

Clivedurdle · 10-16-2006, 01:01 PM

WHERE DOES THE APOSTROPHE GO? (Eats shoots and leaves!)

The Bishop · 10-17-2006, 03:03 AM

I named the Arabic letters in order to indicate that there is a sensible reason for spelling it Qur'an as opposed to Koran. It's qaf not kaf. After the reh is an alef, which is where the apostrophe goes. I guess the 'u' and the 'a' are more optional, but I don't know the ins and outs of Arabic.

gstafleu · 10-17-2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Qur'an is considered a more accurate transliteration. The first letter is a qaff, which is not exactly a k, and there is an aspiration-type sound after the r.

As with the rho? So Qurhan would be pretty close? I thought usually these inserted apostrophes indicated glottal stops. But maybe they are just wildcards, their meaning depending on the underlying language. Anyway, Kurhan would be just as good. Who is going to clue in that the Q is supposed to be a slightly modified K? Let alone who would know how to modify it.

Gerard

Toto · 10-17-2006, 12:15 PM

My mistake - the apostrophe represents a glottal stop.

from this blog

Quote:

pedantic impulses: Qur'an, not Koran

posted by Aziz Poonawalla

I freely admit that this is a marginal and pedantic point of semantics. But Just want to go on record, that the way to write the name of the holy book in Islam is "Qur'an", not Koran.

There are numerous ways to perform arabic-english transliteration, but most of them agree that the hard "Kaaf" consonant is best represented by Q rather than K (there is a soft k consonant also in Arabic for which the k is beter suited). This distinction is important - for example, the words Kalb and Qalb can be easily confused - one means, heart, the other means dog.

Also, the apostrophe in Qur'an represents an actual pause - actually more of a glottal stop. Omitting it means that the word will be pronounced incorrectly....

Being hopelessly monolingual, I'm not sure how a glottal stop sounds.

gstafleu · 10-17-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Being hopelessly monolingual, I'm not sure how a glottal stop sounds.

I think it is sort of like trying to swallow in the middle of a word. Perhaps like the un-sound between the G an s in the pronounciation of the Swiss village of Gsteigwiler. Does this help

?

Gerard

Clivedurdle · 10-17-2006, 02:07 PM

Quote:

the way to write the name of the holy book in Islam is "Qur'an", not Koran.

This emphasises my earlier point - it is not only a design issue but a political and apologist issue - it gets us to treat this collection of ramblings as if it is important or horror of horrors on this board "holy".

We are writing in English. We are ignorant barbarians, pagans and infidels who eat pork, drink beer, look at women, gamble. Koran is fine, especially if attempts to be PC mean we concede respect to something that might not be the most perfect book ever written!

We do not use apostrophes as glottal stops in English so do not bother!

The Bishop · 10-18-2006, 05:59 AM

[quote=Clivedurdle]'appen we do, particularly if we're in't' Alhambra Theatre in Bra'ford.

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10-16-2006, 12:05 PM	#11
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	There seems to be some design implications creeping in - qur'an looks more authentic than koran - which means on IIDB we should use koran!

10-16-2006, 01:01 PM	#14
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	WHERE DOES THE APOSTROPHE GO? (Eats shoots and leaves!)

10-17-2006, 03:03 AM	#15
The Bishop Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: London Posts: 215	I named the Arabic letters in order to indicate that there is a sensible reason for spelling it Qur'an as opposed to Koran. It's qaf not kaf. After the reh is an alef, which is where the apostrophe goes. I guess the 'u' and the 'a' are more optional, but I don't know the ins and outs of Arabic.

10-18-2006, 05:59 AM	#20
The Bishop Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: London Posts: 215	[quote=Clivedurdle]'appen we do, particularly if we're in't' Alhambra Theatre in Bra'ford.

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