luvluv

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Toto

This thread has to be read in context. It was a take-off on How was Jesus so Wise?

I am not sure that anything here should be taken very seriously, or at least not as seriously as some of you seem to be.

Riddick

Let's say I own a Lamborghini. Further, I want to describe to you the intimate details of driving a Lambo. Do you want to hear? What purpose will it serve?

I imagine you saying "Ok, fine" and going about your normal business. More likely, you wouldn't even want to hear what I have to tell you.

Toto

Riddick - suppose we were trying to run a discussion board on Biblical Criticism and History. We are interested in examining the texts for understanding history or religion.

What are we to do with someone who drags his Lamborghini into the discussion? I might salivate over the details of luxury cars, but this is not the place.

Jesus is protrayed in the gospels as giving public and private teaching on various subjects. Some refer to him as a "wisdom teacher." So the question arises, whether he was wise - wise in terms of the times, or wise in our terms. He is supposed to have draw crowds. Why do you suppose this was - did he talk about chariot maintenance? Did he say anything that other wisdom teachers did not? What drew the crowds? Did the crowds or his followers gain some wisdom from what he said?

Agnostic Theist

If anyone saw Stigmata (where the blonde lass gets the Stigma....dur!) the movie's premise is based on the Gospel of Thomas. Have a read of that and tell me, to get the caravan, is it

a.) Wisdom

b.) Foolishness

c.) A typical day in a student's flat - bong included

d.) Schizophrenia



E[x(Bx & Sx)] Where B is bullseye and S is bullshit.

Vorkosigan

There is so much useful knowledge that Jesus might have communicated. Think of all the scientific and engineering knowledge Jesus might have discussed, which could readily have been understood by the people around him, especially the Romans, who were fabulous engineers. The Romans were capable of making magnifying lenses, but did not. They were capable of performing dissections, but did not -- Jesus could easily have pointed them in the right direction. The Greeks had moved in the direction of naturalistic inquiry, but Jesus could have given them a big shove by introducing the scientific method. He could have handed them numerous useful inventions -- porcelain, the compass, kites and aeronautical knowledge, allopathic medicine, stern-post rudders, the escapement for a clock, gunpowder, rockets, and fireworks, steel-making, deep-well drilling, eyeglasses, the Newcomen steam engine -- all of which were in reach of Roman technological capabilities. He could have handed them dozens of ethical and political ideas -- human equality and brotherhood, democracy, human rights. He could have given them many ideas on the operation of government, from civil service exams to merit pay.

In short, Jesus' "wisdom" must be measured against what he could have done, were he really the Son of God. But instead, his store of knowledge, ethics, and politics, is not different from anything already known in his time. The conclusion is obvious.

Vorkosigan

Riddick

I'm assuming raising the dead to life, making the blind see again, are not good enough for you? How do these measure against a compass? What good is a compass, if you can't see the needle?

The conclusion is not so obvious to some.

jackie lee

:wave: My belief is Jesus was not God he was the son of God in the flesh and he had to suffer all things that man suffered including doing stupid things.
I don't believe he was stupid.
I just think he was a man that had to experience all things including stupid actions.

Vorkosigan

What are a few stunts with blind men, against a whole world of suffering? Pure torture -- as if he were saying "Ha! I could have cured you, but I chose not to!"

In any case, the miracles of Jesus are taken from OT models. See Helms, Randel. 1998. Gospel Fictions. Amherst, NY: Prometheus, or Brodie, Thomas L. 2000. The Crucial Bridge: the Elijah-Elisha Narrative as an interpretive
synthesis of Genesis-Kings and a literary model for the Gospels. Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press.

Thus, those miracles do not represent real-world events. They are simple Markan fictions taken up by the later authors.

Vorkosigan

Toto

The question is whether Jesus was "wise" - whether what he said was wise. Performing miracles is another aspect of his persona. Some of the Enlightenment figures who rejected miracles still thought that Jesus was a wise man or a great leader.