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Old 01-15-2008, 01:00 PM   #51
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Macrobius
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Ambrosius Theodosius Macrobius was a Roman grammarian and Neoplatonist philosopher who flourished during the reigns of Honorius and Arcadius (395 AD–423 AD).

The most important of his works is the Saturnalia, containing an account of the discussions held at the house of Vettius Praetextatus (c. 325-385) during the holiday of the Saturnalia. It was written by the author for the benefit of his son Eustathius (or Eustachius), and contains a great variety of curious historical, mythological, critical and grammatical discussions. There is but little attempt to give any dramatic character to the dialogue; in each book some one of the personages takes the leading part, and the remarks of the others serve only as occasions for calling forth fresh displays of erudition.

The first book is devoted to an inquiry as to the origin of the Saturnalia and the festivals of Janus, which leads to a history and discussion of the Roman calendar, and to an attempt to derive all forms of worship from that of the Sun. . . .
The Latin text of Saturnalia is online here. There is a 1969 translation by Percival Vaughan Davies, but it does not appear to be online or readily available.
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Old 01-15-2008, 01:09 PM   #52
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Macrobius
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Ambrosius Theodosius Macrobius was a Roman grammarian and Neoplatonist philosopher who flourished during the reigns of Honorius and Arcadius (395 AD–423 AD).

The most important of his works is the Saturnalia, containing an account of the discussions held at the house of Vettius Praetextatus (c. 325-385) during the holiday of the Saturnalia. It was written by the author for the benefit of his son Eustathius (or Eustachius), and contains a great variety of curious historical, mythological, critical and grammatical discussions. There is but little attempt to give any dramatic character to the dialogue; in each book some one of the personages takes the leading part, and the remarks of the others serve only as occasions for calling forth fresh displays of erudition.

The first book is devoted to an inquiry as to the origin of the Saturnalia and the festivals of Janus, which leads to a history and discussion of the Roman calendar, and to an attempt to derive all forms of worship from that of the Sun. . . .
The Latin text of Saturnalia is online here. There is a 1969 translation by Percival Vaughan Davies, but it does not appear to be online or readily available.
See too: http://www.maijastinakahlos.net/b/ki...urnalia-ch-51/

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CHAPTER 5

SAECULUM PRAETEXTATI: PRAETEXTATUS IN MACROBIUS’ SATURNALIA


5.1 MACROBIUS’ SATURNALIA

The identification of Macrobius and the dating of the Saturnalia. Macrobius’ Saturnalia depicts a literary circle of erudite Roman aristocrats in which Praetextatus, Symmachus, Nicomachus Flavianus and others have gathered together to celebrate the saturnalia festival and to discuss literature, philosophy and religion. Praetextatus appears as the main speaker and one of the main characters in the imaginary conversations of the Saturnalia.

The identification of Macrobius and the dating of his works have been a much discussed problem in the scholarly literature but since 1966 the identification proposed by Alan Cameron has been accepted by most scholars. He identifies the writer of the Saturnalia with a Macrobius Ambrosius Theodosius, the praetorian prefect of Italy in 430, and dates the work after 431.[1] Earlier the writer had been identified with a Macrobius mentioned three times in the Theodosian Code, a vicarius of Hispania in 399-400 (CTh 16.10.15), a proconsul of Africa in 410 (CTh 11.28.6) and a praepositus sacri cubiculi in 422 (CTh 6.8.1)[2] and therefore it was widely held that Macrobius was Praetextatus’ contemporary and belonged to the literary circle of Praetextatus and Symmachus.[3] Cameron rejects these identifications because the writer of the Saturnalia was known as Theodosius, not as Macrobius, for most of the manuscripts of Saturnalia, De differentiis and Somnium Scipionis call him either Macrobius Theodosius or Macrobius Ambrosius Theodosius; a man was usually known by his last name in late Roman nomenclature.[4]

When Macrobius wrote his Saturnalia in the 430s, all the characters in the work were dead; he thus followed the example of Cicero’s De re publica where the characters were all already deceased by the time Cicero wrote his work. The terminus post quem, the last date an interlocutor of the Saturnalia is known to have lived until, is 416. Macrobius himself implies that he has written his Saturnalia one generation later than the main speaker Praetextatus, for in the beginning of the work he apologizes for the anachronisms that he has created: he has included among the characters one or two who gained maturity a generation later than Praetextatus, matura aetas posterior saeculo Praetextati fuit.[5] Two interlocutors, Servius and Avienus, who belong to the next generation, are anachronisms whose matura aetas fell after the saeculum of Praetextatus. As Macrobius wrote his Saturnalia one generation after Praetextatus’ death, Servius and Avienus were already established figures in the scholarly world; Servius is identified with the Vergil commentator Servius who published his commentary probably after 410, before Macrobius’ Saturnalia, and Avienus with the fabulist Avianus from the early fifth century.[6]

The dramatic date of the Saturnalia. In describing Praetextatus’ circle, Macrobius followed the model of Cicero who in his De re publica had introduced the literary circle around Scipio Africanus the Younger and set the scene of his dialogue only a couple of days before the death of Scipio, the main speaker, in 129 B.C.E.[7] Since Cicero had chosen the nearest feast day, i.e. the feriae Latinae, before Scipio’s death as the dramatic date of his Republic, Macrobius might have decided to imitate him when he chose the festival of saturnalia, Dec. 17-19, 384 as the dramatic date of his work.[8] Thus, Praetextatus should have died soon after the celebration of saturnalia. However, if we follow the dating for Praetextatus’ death set in ch. 4.1, between Dec 8 and Dec 10, 384, the date given by Macrobius must be wrong. As I have shown, Praetextatus’ death had been such an important incident that the succeeding generation of Macrobius probably knew and remembered that he had passed away at the end of 384 because Praetextatus died as consul designatus for the following year. Nevertheless, was the exact date of Praetextatus’ death known as late as in the 430s? It is possible that Macrobius did not know exactly when Praetextatus died or he did not bother to note exact dates for literary reasons. He intended to follow the model of Cicero’s Republic in setting the scene right before Praetextatus’ death but he was not precise enough. The festival of saturnalia fitted perfectly as the dramatic scene for his work as the festival of feriae Latinae had been the scene of Cicero’s De re publica.

The genre of the Saturnalia. Macrobius’ Saturnalia belongs to the genre of symposium and compiles several different subjects together, mixing serious and non-serious subjects. The model of symposium literature, where interlocutors really have existed and their memory is still alive in an author’s time, is Plato’s Symposium. It is, however, probable that Macrobius did not use Plato directly but rather used the Greek and Latin literary tradition.[9]

In his Saturnalia Macrobius follows quite faithfully the traditions of symposium literature in which characters represent various professions and generations. There are twelve characters in the symposium:[10] first, the three aristocratic hosts during the three days represent various fields, Praetextatus religious science, Flavianus literary scholarship and Symmachus eloquency. Rufius Albinus and Caecina Albinus are erudite Roman senators.[11] Eustathius is a Greek philosopher, Eusebius a rhetorician, Dysarius a physician, and Horus an Egyptian philosopher and a cynic.[12] Servius and Avienus are grammarians, and finally, Euangelus is the uninvited guest and troublemaker, according to the genre of symposium. There are three generations[13] in the Saturnalia: the aged represented by Praetextatus, the middle-aged by Symmachus, Nicomachus Flavianus, Caecina Albinus and Rufius Albinus (about forty years), the young by Servius and Avienus.

The Saturnalia as a source. There has been dispute among scholars whether Macrobius can be relied upon as a historical source, as a primary or secondary source. His Saturnalia is a description of an imaginative symposium that reveals ideas and ideals of his own generation rather than the pursuits of Praetextatus’ generation. Macrobius did not belong to the circle of Praetextatus and Symmachus but he probably based his information on Praetextatus and other characters on Symmachus’ posthumously published letters or on other, no longer extant sources.[14] Nevertheless, many scholars have been convinced that Macrobius’ Saturnalia is a faithful description of the Roman pagan cultured nobility. Though Courcelle remarked that the characters in the Saturnalia do not act in lively manner and that Macrobius, following the tradition of learned compilations, borrowed the discussions from literary sources, he still insisted that Macrobius portrayed the principal features of the personalities faithfully. Flamant also believes that the characters represent real persons for each character has his own personality.[15] I am, however, inclined to think that Macrobius clearly has followed the rules of the genre and created types, not real personalities; Praetextatus is the host, Euangelus the rude guest, etc.

With reservations (see my views in the Introduction, p. 4-6) the Saturnalia can be called a ‘pagan’ work, and Macrobius may have himself been a pagan or pagan-minded but the pagan element in the Saturnalia should not be over-emphasized for it was not ‘pagan’ propaganda aimed against Christianity as some scholars have considered it to be. Flamant, for example, detects ‘pagan’ attacks against Christianity hidden behind the vast scholarship and antiquarianism of the work. Thus, the polemic would always be implicit because Macrobius could not enter into open controversy against Christians in the Christianized society.[16] Euangelus has been used as an example of the hidden insinuations against Christianity: Courcelle proposed that Euangelus’ name might refer to his adherence to the Christian religion and Macrobius might have presented him in an unfavourable light because he was a Christian. Euangelus reprimands Vergil and Cicero (Macr. Sat. 5.2.1; 1.24.2-4) and threatens to leave if the discussion turns to pagan religious secrets whereas Praetextatus answers that the pagans have nothing to hide on the nature of gods (Macr. Sat. 1.7.4-6). Later Euangelus accuses Praetextatus of superstition (Macr. Sat. 1.11.1-2) and after Praetextatus’ speech on solar theology, he makes ironical remarks (Macr. Sat. 1.24.2-4; 1.24.6-7).[17] Nevertheless, as Flamant points out, Euangelus does not act as a Christian in the Saturnalia but rather as a sceptic.[18] Furthermore, he acts in the role of an uninvited and uncouth guest in the symposium.

Instead of being ‘pagan’ propaganda or polemic against Christians, Macrobius’ Saturnalia is rather an encyclopedia or an antiquarian compilation of the Roman traditions that I reluctantly call ‘pagan’. Alan Cameron regards the work as an idealization of the saeculum Praetextati while P. Chuvin criticizes him for simplification and exaggeration since the work is not only an idealized and nostalgic portrait of the pagan past but it could also be regarded as a theological meditation.[19] I regard the Saturnalia as a meditation on the past because what Macrobius cherishes in it is not the Graeco-Roman pantheon but the cultural heritage of the past (of which the Graeco-Roman gods inevitably formed a part). As W. Liebeschuetz has recently remarked, Macrobius wished to demonstrate the great value of the cultural heritage of the ‘pagan’ past to his contemporaries but also simultanously to avoid conflict with Christianity.[20] Macrobius, in addition to Martianus Capella and some other writers, succeeded in reconciling the Graeco-Roman heritage of the past with the Christian culture, since his writings, particularly his Somnium Scipionis, were among the most popular works in the Middle Ages.

It seems that Macrobius chose Praetextatus and others as his interlocutors not for their manifest paganism but for their erudition since even one or two generations after their death they were still remembered as learned Roman aristocrats who lived according to the Ciceronian ideal of viri clarissimi et sapientissimi. Macrobius’ Saturnalia reflects sentimental antiquarianism, nostalgic idealization of the past and desire to assert continuity between the present 430s and the saeculum Praetextati, thus voicing the cultural aspirations of the fifth-century aristocrats rather than of the fourth-century senators.[21]

———————————————— —————————–

[1] Alan Cameron 1966; followed by Gersh 496-497; De Paolis 1986-1987, xv; Cracco Ruggini 1985a, 146; Cracco Ruggini 1985b, 296. CTh 12.6.33 (Febr. 3, 430) addressed to Macrobius Ambrosius Theodosius; this identification was already suggested by Mazzarino 1937-1938, 255-256. Flamant 134 dates the Saturnalia between 420 and 430, probably 425-428, Chuvin 130 shortly after 431 or between 425 and 428 and Gersh 497-498 argues for a date as early as soon after 410.

[2] E.g. Courcelle 1943, 3; Stahl 6-9; Lambrechts 33; Marinone 10; Bloch 1945, 206; later Döpp 619-632; Flamant 102-123; Thrams 167. For the discussion on Macrobius and different ways of dating, see Döpp 619-632.

[3] E.g. Alföldi 1952, 39-41; Thrams 141. Courcelle 1956, 220-239 even put forward a strange hypothesis of a date earlier than 386 because he believed Ambrose had used the Saturnalia but his hypothesis was rejected by Fuhrmann 1963, 301-308.

[4] Alan Cameron 1966, 25; Alan Cameron 1982, 380.

[5] Macr. Sat. 1.1.5. Alan Cameron 1966, 28-37. However, Flamant 58, n.218 points out that the interlocutors Brutus and Atticus in Cicero’s Brutus were alive in Cicero’s time and Döpp 628 remarks that in Plato’s dialogues which Macrobius mentions as his models (Macr. Sat. 1.1.5-6), the main speaker Socrates was already dead when the dialogues were written but other speakers were alive; furthermore, Wytzes 344 believes that many of Symmachus’ contemporaries were still alive in 431 or at least during the preparation of the Saturnalia.

[6] Servius is mentioned as inter grammaticos doctorem recens professus: Macr. Sat. 1.2.15. Avianus dedicated his work to a Theodosius whom Alan Cameron 1967b, 385-399 identifies with the writer of the Saturnalia. Marinone 10-11, 44 insists that Servius must have published his work after Macrobius since Macrobius could not have read Servius’ work because he puts in Servius’ mouth views that contrast with Servius’ commentary. According to Alan Cameron 1966, 29-33 Macrobius simply did not bother to check that the imaginary Servius’ opinions in the Saturnalia accorded with Servius’ own views.

[7] Macr. Sat. 1.1.4. In Cicero’s De Oratore the scene also is set a few days before the death of the main speaker, Crassus, in 91 B.C.E. Cf. Athenaeus’ 15.686c where the host of the symposium died a few days after the banquet.

[8] Alan Cameron 1966, 28-29. Flamant 27 n.41 sets the dramatic date at the end of 383.

[9] Lucian’s , Plutarch’s µ , Athenaeus’ , Julian’s µ (known also as Caesares), Petronius’ Cena Trimalchionis and Hor. sat. 2.8 belong to the genre of symposium. Flamant 174-183; Courcelle 1943, 9-12.

[10] Twelve is not a randomly chosen number: 12=9+3 is the number of Muses and Graces. Macr. Sat. 1.7.12-13.

[11] Caeionius Rufius Albinus was still alive in 416; PLRE I, Albinus 15, 37-38. Publilius Caeionius Caecina Albinus: Hier. epist. 107 (in 403) refers to him as senex; PLRE I, Albinus 8, 34-35.

[12] Horus had been a boxer, an Olympic victor in 364 before he turned to philosophy (as a cynic): Liban. epist. 1278; 1279. Symm. epist. 2.39 recommends a Horus to Nicomachus Flavianus. Eustathius is depicted as a close friend of Nicomachus Flavianus (Macr. Sat. 1.6.4) and an expert in philosophy, representing three different sects, Stoic, Academic and Peripathetic: Macr. Sat. 1.5.13-16. Eusebius is a Greek rhetor, Dysarius a Greek physician. A Dysarius mentioned by Symmachus, epist. 3.37; 9.44. Symm. epist. 6.7 mentions an unpleasant Euangelus.

[13] There are also three generations in Cicero’s Republic (rep. 1.12.18).

[14] Neither a Macrobius nor a suitable Theodosius appears in Symmachus’ extensive correspondence. Alan Cameron 1966, 33-34; Mazzarino 1938, 250.

[15] Courcelle 1943, 4; Flamant 86. For Bloch 1945, 206 Macrobius “offers deepest insight into the life and thought of Rome’s pagan nobility”; Döpp 631 is convinced that Macrobius was Praetextatus’ contemporary and as an eye witness gives authentic information on Praetextatus’ circle.

[16] E.g. Bloch 1945; Flamant 135-139, 676. Flamant believes that Macrobius published the Saturnalia before Nicomachus Flavianus’ rehabilitation because it was written precisely to campaign for his rehabilitation. DePaolis 1987, 296 believes that Macrobius must have been converted to Christianity but his work was “fortement pénétrée d’esprit païen”.

[17] Courcelle 1943, 8 n.3. The name Euangelus is pagan as well as Christian.

[18] Flamant 74-75.

[19] Alan Cameron 1966, 35-38 and Liebeschuetz 200-202 for the antiquarian purposes of the Saturnalia. Chuvin 130-131.

[20] Liebeschuetz 202.

[21] Alan Cameron 1966, 35-36. Flamant 196-197, however, claims that Macrobius deliberately chose Praetextatus, Symmachus and Nicomachus Flavianus because they were regarded as the last major figures of paganism. For the aristocratic culture in Italy and the Western provinces in the fifth century, see Matthews 1975, 352-376, 386 where he emphasizes the continuity of the aristocratic way of life in the fifth century.
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Old 01-15-2008, 01:16 PM   #53
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Dude, maybe you should read that quote that you brought up from Tertullian's Apologeticum one more time. You should read it and remember the point that Acharya S was trying to make. Acharya S thinks that Jesus represented the Sun in early Christianity. Now here comes that quote from the early Christian writer Tertullian:
"A few of the more refined of you think we worship the sun. Again, that is your practise, not ours."
This statement continues (source):
"Instead we worship the one God, the creator. He gave us books to allow us to know him, unknowable as the infinite is of itself, and sent men to tell us about him."
Tertullian explicitly says that he does not worship the Sun. Acharya S says that he does worship the Sun.

Maybe it is not you, and it is me. Am I missing something here? (That is my bad attempt at being polite.)
Yea.. Well, I don't think Acharya is saying that Tertullian was worshiping the sun, or even that he thought he was. I think she is saying that other people were claiming that Christianity was based on principles or ideas of sun worship, which Tertullian denied. This clearly demonstrates that Christian detractors, at the time of Tertullian, at least made the charge enough to require two rebuttals.
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Old 01-15-2008, 01:22 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe View Post
Dude, maybe you should read that quote that you brought up from Tertullian's Apologeticum one more time. You should read it and remember the point that Acharya S was trying to make. Acharya S thinks that Jesus represented the Sun in early Christianity. Now here comes that quote from the early Christian writer Tertullian:
"A few of the more refined of you think we worship the sun. Again, that is your practise, not ours."
This statement continues (source):
"Instead we worship the one God, the creator. He gave us books to allow us to know him, unknowable as the infinite is of itself, and sent men to tell us about him."
Tertullian explicitly says that he does not worship the Sun. Acharya S says that he does worship the Sun.

Maybe it is not you, and it is me. Am I missing something here? (That is my bad attempt at being polite.)
Yea.. Well, I don't think Acharya is saying that Tertullian was worshiping the sun, or even that he thought he was. I think she is saying that other people were claiming that Christianity was based on principles or ideas of sun worship, which Tertullian denied.

You think she is saying this?

Do you not know?

Would someone please be kind enough to present us with the full context of her Tertullian (mis) quote?

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Old 01-15-2008, 01:37 PM   #55
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Yea.. Well, I don't think Acharya is saying that Tertullian was worshiping the sun, or even that he thought he was. I think she is saying that other people were claiming that Christianity was based on principles or ideas of sun worship, which Tertullian denied.

You think she is saying this?

Do you not know?

Would someone please be kind enough to present us with the full context of her Tertullian (mis) quote?

Jeffrey

You are sure an abrasive one.

Please give me some of Jesus' love, mah friend. No need to be a jerk.

I don't have the book with me..... Therefore, I can only go on remembrance. 'I think'.

Why was Tertullian responding to criticisms on two occasions regarding Christianity being tantamount to sun worship? I think it's a valid question to ask, and at least points to the possibility that there were critics that thought this in his time.....
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Old 01-15-2008, 01:59 PM   #56
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You think she is saying this?

Do you not know?

Would someone please be kind enough to present us with the full context of her Tertullian (mis) quote?

Jeffrey

You are sure an abrasive one.

Not at all.

Please give me some of Jesus' love, mah friend. No need to be a jerk.
I was unaware that calls for precision -- and to avoid making claims until one is fairly sure of what one is talking about -- constitutes being a jerk. But have it your way.

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But I don't have the book with me..... Therefore, I can only go on remembrance. 'I think'.
Not the best of methodologies.

Quote:
Why was Tertullian responding to criticisms on two occasions regarding Christianity being tantamount to sun worship?
Is that what the charge against Christianity was?

Quote:
I think it's a valid question to ask, and at least points to the possibility that there were critics that thought this in his time.....
Did any one say that this was an impossibility, especially since Tertullian himself admits that this occurred -- though, as he says, only within a small circle of elites?

A better question to ask -- while were waiting to find out what AS really maintains -- whether those few who made the charge believed it was true or were just engaging in a kind of dirty trick -- a not infrequent tactic in polemic.

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Old 01-15-2008, 02:04 PM   #57
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Would someone please be kind enough to present us with the full context of her Tertullian (mis) quote?
This is from her website: (I've included the paragraph before and after. The key statement is in italics)
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins5.htm
The Creation of a Myth

The Christians went on a censorship rampage that led to the virtual illiteracy of the ancient world and ensured that their secret would be hidden from the masses, but the scholars of other schools/sects never gave up their arguments against the historicizing of a very ancient mythological creature. We have lost the arguments of these learned dissenters because the Christians destroyed any traces of their works. Nonetheless, the Christians preserved the contentions of their detractors through the Christians' own refutations.

For example, early Church Father Tertullian (@ 160-220 C.E.), an "ex-Pagan" and Bishop of Carthage, ironically admits the true origins of the Christ story and of all other such godmen by stating in refutation of his critics, "You say we worship the sun; so do you." Interestingly, a previously strident believer and defender of the faith, Tertullian later renounced Christianity.

The "Son" of God is the "Sun" of God

The reason why all these narratives are so similar, with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula (the "Mythos," as mentioned above) revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.

For instance, many of the world's crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th ("Christmas")...
Acharya's use of "Ex Pagan" in quotes seems to be implying (at least to me) that Tertullian remained with some pagan beliefs, though she doesn't specify that this was related to sun worship.

A couple of things though: AFAIK, Tertullian was never Bishop of Carthage, just an ordained priest (or am I wrong on that?). Also, he never renounced Christianity. He became a heretic, renouncing orthodoxy, but never Christianity. (Her footnotes give Wheless as the source for these statements).
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Old 01-15-2008, 02:29 PM   #58
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Would someone please be kind enough to present us with the full context of her Tertullian (mis) quote?
This is from her website: (I've included the paragraph before and after. The key statement is in italics)
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins5.htm[indent]The Creation of a Myth

The Christians went on a censorship rampage that led to the virtual illiteracy of the ancient world and ensured that their secret would be hidden from the masses, but the scholars of other schools/sects never gave up their arguments against the historicizing of a very ancient mythological creature. We have lost the arguments of these learned dissenters because the Christians destroyed any traces of their works. Nonetheless, the Christians preserved the contentions of their detractors through the Christians' own refutations.
Wow! Only the contentions? Not their actual words?
Quote:
For example, early Church Father Tertullian (@ 160-220 C.E.), an "ex-Pagan" and Bishop of Carthage, ironically admits the true origins of the Christ story and of all other such godmen by stating in refutation of his critics, "You say we worship the sun; so do you." Interestingly, a previously strident believer and defender of the faith, Tertullian later renounced Christianity.
Looks like AS is doing to Tertullian exactly what she claims -- though apparently without an ounce of documentation -- Tertullian and others (like Origen?) did to the works of the "learned dissenters".

If so, what irony. She decries early Christians as anti-intellectual and immoral for doing it , but then engages in the very thing she decries.

And no, Tertullian was never the Bishop of Carthage, only a presbyter within that church. And his leaving "orthodoxy" was because he felt it was not Christian enough, not because he renounced Christianity.

I'm wagering that AS does not cite a source for her claims on these matters either.

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Old 01-15-2008, 03:04 PM   #59
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There are several factors of speaking about ancient belief systems that can be separated even though they inform eachother. One way to break it down might go something like this:

I. Religion
(a) Comparative Mythology
(b) Theology
(c) Astrology

II. Ancient Texts and Languages
(a) Linguistic Studies
(b) Translation
(c) Interpretation

III. Science
(a) History
(b) Archaeology
(c) Anthropology

I think its useful to speak about them separately because they often get conflated in discussions. Disproving one thing doesn't disprove another. Arguing about the minutiea of ancient texts may not be all that helpful towards clarifying issues of comparative mythology. Much of Acharya's work is about astrotheology, but she could argue for the similarities simply on the basis of comparative mythology. Trying to base arguments on the words of individual people from long ago may not be that helpful in figuring out what comparisons seem the most valid.

As for this thread, I think its useful to separate the two sides of Acharya's writing. For one, Acharya's theories about Christianity stand or fall by themselves... such as the ahistorical nature of Jesus or the late dating of certain texts. And, secondly, her theories about astrotheology aren't dependent on the interpretation of Christian theology as it developed one or two centuries after its origins. Astrotheology is primarily about symbolism which can be considered somewhat separtely from specific texts. For instance, the earliest Christian imagery on walls has no texts that explain it.
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Old 01-15-2008, 03:34 PM   #60
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...For example, early Church Father Tertullian (@ 160-220 C.E.), an "ex-Pagan" and Bishop of Carthage, ironically admits the true origins of the Christ story and of all other such godmen by stating in refutation of his critics, "You say we worship the sun; so do you."...
As we have seen, he "admits" no such thing.

Is there an actual translation that reads this way or are the quotes inappropriately surrounding a misleading paraphrase?
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