Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Buster Daily · 03-06-2006, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

It isn't clear at all. Name the three gods. Are you invoking the doctrine of the Trinity here, something not invented until the church councils of the fourth century CE?

Jake

No, I'm using sarcasm. I'm not sure when that was invented.

Notsri · 03-06-2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

I wasn't aware of a similar Jewish tradition of reading a demon into the snake's part in the story. Thanks for the info. I assume it precedes the Christian effort but by how much time?

It's from post-Christian Rabbinic literature.

Granted, the Pirqe de-Rabbi Eliezer is itself a late, post-Christian work, but its identification of Eden's serpent with a demonic force is known already from Jewish literature of the late Second Temple period, or shortly thereafter. The Life of Adam and Eve provides an example. M.D. Johnson, whose translation of the Life is found in volume 2 of Charlesworth's pseudepigrapha, dates the work sometime "between 100 B.C. and A.D. 200, more probably toward the end of the first Christian century." In the book, the angel Michael compels the hosts of heaven, including Satan, to worship Adam at the time of his creation. Satan and his cohorts refuse, resulting in their expulsion from heaven. Satan, of course, is miffed about the whole ordeal, and so decides to tempt Eve in the garden. "So with deceit I assailed [Eve] and made [Adam] to be expelled through her from the joys of...bliss, as I have been expelled from my glory." (This aspect of the Life is also of interest for the fact that virtually the same tradition appears later in the Qur'an.)

Regards,
Notsri

Steven Avery · 03-06-2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

I wasn't aware of a similar Jewish tradition of reading a demon into the snake's part in the story. Thanks for the info. I assume it precedes the Christian effort but by how much time?

Welcome. With the rabbinical midrashic writings my understanding is that they tend to be in texts from the period between the Talmud (c.200-400AD) and rabbinical ages (1000-1500).

The Jewish view would tend to place these as representing much earlier traditions, making dating a precarious procedure. As far as I can tell, the theory that the rabbis would copy Christian exegesis is rarely floated in scholarly circles. It definitely is not their claim :-)

And I see that Notsri has really answered your question with much more precise referencing.

There is also an article showing a lot of Jewish early references (including DSS) on demonology and showing similarities and differences to the New Testament ideas. However I didn't see Garden of Eden and Satan/Sammael references in that paper, the topic is different.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1096
Demonism in Jewish/Hellenistic Literature and Its Relation to Mark 5

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Buster Daily · 03-06-2006, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notsri

Satan, of course, is miffed about the whole ordeal, and so decides to tempt Eve in the garden.

If I'm not mistaken, Satan appeared as a radiant and beautiful angel in the Garden in "The Life of Adam and Eve". He made the serpent tempt Eve and thus receive a curse. The snake was another victim in the story. Regardless, this stuff was first century BC or later and doesn't reflect anything in the original authorship.

Buster Daily · 03-06-2006, 12:19 PM

Quote:

The text has proven very difficult to date and one can be no more accurate than to say it must have been composed between the 3rd and 7th centuries. It is quite possible of course that certain literary units of the work are considerably older than this as there can be no question that the present form of the work is the result of a complex redactional process that wove together different source materials into a single story.

Equally problematic is the question of the work's provenance. Most scholars have assumed a Jewish origin for the work, on the grounds that evidence of explicit Christian features are so minimal in the tale and seem to be of a late redactional level rather than integral to the story itself. Yet recent scholarship on the creation and transmission of such apocryphal tales from antiquity suggests that the possibility of Christian origins be given due consideration. In any event the fact that the tale was copied, edited and expanded by Christian scribes and enjoyed immense popularity in Christian circles needs to be taken seriously. There is evidence of Jewish familiarity with parts of the work but no evidence of any role in the transmission of the text as it now presently stands.

This is from here. I don't think we should be using "The Life of Adam and Eve" to make claims about Jewish tradition of Satan in the Garden.

Notsri · 03-06-2006, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster Daily

If I'm not mistaken, Satan appeared as a radiant and beautiful angel in the Garden in "The Life of Adam and Eve". He made the serpent tempt Eve and thus receive a curse. The snake was another victim in the story. Regardless, this stuff was first century BC or later and doesn't reflect anything in the original authorship.

You're thinking of Satan's second temptation of Eve, after she'd already left the garden. Eve is standing in the Tigris River, offering penance, when Satan approaches having "transformed himself into the brightness of angels."

Regards,
Notsri

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-06-2006, 12:58 PM

Even if The Life of Adam and Eve" could be proven to be from the 2nd Temple period, it would still have no relevance to the original intent of the Genesis story.

Buster Daily · 03-06-2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

And Adam said, "When God created me and your mother, through whom we die and through whom you will all be mortal, he gave us the Garden in Paradise, which we lost on account of Eve. That is, when it was the sixth hour, Eve saw Satan and venerated him, because he came in the form of an angel, and he gave to Eve from the tree and she transgressed the commands of the Lord and ate of what the serpent had handed her." And Seth asked, "Who instructed the serpent?" Adam said to his son, "The devil changed himself into radiant form and came to the serpent in the form of an angel and said to it, "You are very intelligent, give to Eve from the tree, she will taste it and also give it to Adam." And thus she/it did and for this reason we have fallen prey to sickness and death.

Radiant is mentioned here too. This is translated from Slavonic by the authors I quoted previously. The other versions either mention Satan, the serpent, or neither. In none that I skimmed briefly did I see Satan and the serpent as the same creature. Feel free to correct me. I'm no expert on this text.

It really doesn't matter, however, unless you are going to claim that this text somehow represents ancient Jewish tradition. The entire point that led us here was the claim that someone not Christian felt that the serpent in Genesis was anything other than a serpent.

Buster Daily · 03-06-2006, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Even if The Life of Adam and Eve" could be proven to be from the 2nd Temple period, it would still have no relevance to the original intent of the Genesis story.

Thank you, Diogenes. I am a newbie and have difficulty avoiding diversionary quagmires.

jakejonesiv · 03-06-2006, 01:44 PM

Where was the Garden of Eden?

Where was the Garden of Eden?

Here is a description from Genesis 2:8-14.

Genesis 2
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

The Tigris and Euphrates are easy to locate on any map of Iraq. Thus they were in Mesopotamia. It would then seem that Eden would have been located in southern Mesopotania. This would seem to fit with the origin of the Abrahamic people, in Genesis Ur of the Chaldees. But what about the Pishon and Gihon?

I have seen suggestions from Turkey to under the current Persian gulf.

Jake Jones IV

P.S. Why did King James think the Tigris was called the Hiddekel? Maybe praxeus knows.

03-06-2006, 01:44 PM	#90
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	Where was the Garden of Eden? Where was the Garden of Eden? Where was the Garden of Eden? Here is a description from Genesis 2:8-14. Genesis 2 8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. The Tigris and Euphrates are easy to locate on any map of Iraq. Thus they were in Mesopotamia. It would then seem that Eden would have been located in southern Mesopotania. This would seem to fit with the origin of the Abrahamic people, in Genesis Ur of the Chaldees. But what about the Pishon and Gihon? I have seen suggestions from Turkey to under the current Persian gulf. Jake Jones IV P.S. Why did King James think the Tigris was called the Hiddekel? Maybe praxeus knows.

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03-06-2006, 12:58 PM	#87
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Even if The Life of Adam and Eve" could be proven to be from the 2nd Temple period, it would still have no relevance to the original intent of the Genesis story.

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