Ubercat

I just had the witnesses ring the doorbell for the first time here. I saw through the window, half of a conservatively dressed black woman, and thought "Witnesses!" I considered being rude, but chose not to. I went to the door and sure enough, a quick glance confirmed a watchtower in her hand. Her companions were a small child and an older white man.

The man asked about talking to me but noticed I was wearing nothing but ragged black shorts (I'd just been on the treadmill and was performing some tasks before hitting the shower.) He said that it looked like they'd caught me at a bad time, and I said yes. He asked about returning another time and I said "You can come back another time if you want to." That was the kicker I'm sure. My answer would have told them if they were wasting their time on me. Now they probably think they have a shot.

I did a search for related threads, but apparently don't understand the vagaries of the search function. I just want to get ideas about what to say if/when they return. I'd like to make them think, but not scare or insult them.

Any specifics about JW belief that I can bring up? Any bald flat out contradictions of the specific bible areas they base their religion on? I know they get their stuff from cherry picked bible verses. Surely I can show what a contradictory mish mash any bible based belief is.

I was also thinking of asking why they think that their beliefs are true, or that their god is real, and then just tracing it back to what it's based on. Eventually we'd reach a point where it was just wishful thinking, or Elder so and so said so. Then I'd mention how every other religion has an equally vacuous claim to correctness.

Thoughts?

-Ubercat

Weltall

Ask then when the End Times are scheduled to arrive...

Ubercat

Have they had a ton of false alarms? I seem to recall reading that before....

-Ubercat

Styrofoamdeity

Related to Weltall's comment, ask them if there are wars on every continent portending the end times. When they say that there are, ask them who is fighting who in Australia. And in Antarctica is it Emperor Penguins against King Penguins or like, WTF?

Since they believe that worldwise wars and disasters portend the end times, beffudle them with trivial but true bullshit such as the largest volcanic eruption in known history being the eruption of Tambora in 1815 or Krakatoa in 1883. Recent volcanic eruptions haven't been too bad. Also recent earthquakes have been rather smaller than some of the ones in former times. The largest quake in US history was rumored to have been the great New Madrid Quake of 1812 (in Mississippi!). The Mississippi River actually began RUNNING BACKWARDS! Considering Tambora and the New Madrid Earthquake, shouldn't the end of time actually have happened in 1815 or so? There was a world war of sorts then too, with France and England fighting on every continent, even in Oceana! But the End TImes didn't happen, even when it was due.

We just don't have disasters of that scale these days. Must be it is not the end of time. Tell them to go home and smoke some dope, or tell them you can get some for them from your closet.

J. T.

Flirt with the old man.

NeverByte

If you don't want to talk to them at all, tell them you were a JW previously, but you've been 'disfellowshipped' and you're an 'apostate'. If they don't scarper sharpish, you might want to tell them that you've had numerous blood transfusions and you regularly speak with the dead. If that doesn't work, I don't know what will...

The Other Michael

Ubercat, you'd probably find more info in SL than GRD.

I think one person targeted the small child (8 or 9 years) with questions about "do you know that your Daddy will let you die if you need a blood transfusion to save you?"

That might be seen as cruel, but then again if it gets the kid to think and break away from the cult it may be kinder in the long run.

cheers,
Michael

Berthold

One of my colleagues once told them that she worries about the state of mankind indeed, and that left-wing policies will be the right remedy...

xaxxat

Ask them if Larsguy47 is really the messiah...

Gawen

JW's have an entire thought-system that is inextricably intertwined with their daily lives. But if one stone is removed from the edifice, the entire building may tumble. They are well aware of this danger, so they can not (and almost always will not) allow any of their beliefs to be discussed dispassionately. They have a vested interest in proving to one and all (and especially to themselves) that everything they believe is The Truth. And like Mormons/LDS's, you will not see just one evangelical. At the least you will have two. And the child they may bring serves to functions, one is to protect them from abuse or assault (for very few people will attack another in front of a child) and the other is to further indoctrinate the child in their belief system and demonstrate 'witnessing'.

JW's carry out their door-to-door evangelising, constantly exposing themselves to threats to their doctrines. Through experience and training, they master a potent collection of verbal and psychological devices to protect what they believe.
Anti-prosessing: Resistance to the processing of information. This is like a child's belief that "If I don't see it, it can't see me" (or "...it isn't there"). Adults find more subtle ways of "closing their eyes"; they know that they can evade suffering by ignoring certain things. Some people just put their fingers in their ears and mutter na na na na na. Most JW's are like this...(not literally, of course).

So, at some point many JW's have been challenged with a 'devastatingly logical argument', rendering him/her aghast and speechless. Yet the next day he/she will seem the same as before. What happened was that he managed to annihilate the problem in some way. Perhaps he decided it was 'stupid', 'pointless', or 'overly clever'. Perhaps he simply forced himself to forget about it which is a a technique JW's refer to as "Waiting on Jehovah". It is their invisible armour. You may find it necessary to repeat the argument from the beginning. However, you may not be able to do this because the antiprocessing, which is still functioning, will recognize the danger. It will invoke additional defensive measures to prevent the information from being processed. Mostly they will change the subject to something more comfortable to them, putting you on the defensive.

And then there's Fight or Flight. Very few JW's will stick around to fight. Antiprocessing could be called active avoidance of cognitive dissonance. This is a good time to ask if you have any chance of breaching the defense. The JW has worked for a long time to fine-tune his antiprocessing, and it clearly works very well, as I suspect you will see. Sometimes they will run and never come back...sometimes they will come back and try again. But believe me, it's not anything you have said that perks their interest. The Witnessess will go back and 'report'. They will pray and communal reinforcement will bolster their 'righteousness' only to come back armed with the same gun, which to you is inadequate.

If you are able to discuss doctrine with JW's (which I have done just once in dozens of encounters), you will find that they resist hearing contradictory opinions. Their beliefs are as 'obvious' to them as the as 1+1+1=1. Bear in mind that in all the hundreds of repetitions of scripture and Watchtower articles they meet for each week, the ideas are always presented as fact. Your single attempt to raise doubt is overwhelmed by the intense and invisible shield of indoctrination. Be prepared for stock answers beginning with "The Bible says..." and "The Watchtower says...". After a few years indoctrination, a JW may hear the same key ideas and learnt stock answers repeated hundreds of times. These beliefs become embedded and can be called up in an instant. Remember, these beliefs are NOT to be analyzed.

Rewriting history
The Watchtower Society has such tight control over the information to which a JW is exposed, they have been known to rewrite or skew their own history and help their people forget about previous failures. Two examples are:
Between 1968 and 1975, the Society unsubtly and repeatedly implied that the world would arrive at a cataclysm known as "Armageddon" in 1975. Many JW's quit their jobs, sold their homes, or postponed further education, in order to get ready for the Great Day. 1975 came and went and thousands of JW's left the church. Yet if you ask a JW today about what happened in 1975, they will hear things like it was "the result of some overzealous brothers", and that "most Witnesses did not take it seriously".

Those JW's who remember the 1975 debacle -- and have remained Witnesses -- also claim that the incident was not of great import. It is worth noting that the majority of current Witnesses joined after 1975, and have been exposed to the constant down-playing of the event by the Watchtower Society. It has been reported that old-timers have doubted their own memories. Most Witnesses are completely unaware that a similar apocalyptic prediction failed in 1925, and they lost half their membership. So even if you know the Society's history well, you may have trouble convincing a Witness that what you say is factual.

Even with full awareness of the tactics that JW's use to deflect arguments, you can win most debates with them if you keep a cool head, if they stick around long enough. However, if you intend to bring about a change in attitude, belief system or dogma, your efforts are futile and most likely doomed to failure. Their emotional comfort is more important than truth. And much of their truth comes from their version of the bible: New World Translation...which should raise a flag.