Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-09-2013, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Quote:

Originally Posted by ficino

So why should we think that his words in I Cor 15 represent a "creed" that he picked up from Cephas and/or other supposed eyewitnesses of the empty tomb?

Has any New Religious Movement ever produced a creed so early in its life?

Buddhism? (4 Noble truths).

Not that I think Paul was citing a creed. I find Bob Price pretty convincing on this.

I will say that individual religious leaders often formulize their teachings because they usually have to repeat them over and over again (see 4 Noble Truths), so Paul (or whoever) could have been regurgitating his own personal formula at some point, but even that has been tampered with.

I also think we can't overlook Paul's capacity for simply lying. It's not exactly an uncommon trait for cult leaders to make up nonsensical crap that contradicts their other nonsensical crap.

Personally think it's a methodological mistake to presume that any individual will necessarily be internally consistent, or static in their beliefs/rhetoric, etc. Sheer mendacity is always a live option with Paul.

maryhelena · 03-09-2013, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Here is the Marcioite version of 1 Corinthians 15:1-11.

Quote:

15:1 Γκςνίγς δὲ ὑι῔κ, ἀδεθθμί, ηὸ εὐαββέθζμκ ὃ εὐδββεθζζάιδκ ὑι῔κ, 129
Now I make known to you, brothers, the Gospel which I preached to you,
ὃ ηαὶ πανεθάαεηε, ἐκ ᾧ ηαὶ ἑζηήηαηε,
which you received, in which you also have stood,

15:2 δζ᾽ μὖ ηαὶ ζῴγεζεε, ηίκζ θόβῳ εὐδββεθζζάιδκ ὑι῔κ εἰ ηαηέπεηε, ἐηηὸξ εἰ ιὴ εἰηῆ ἐπζζηεύζαηε.
if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless in vain you believed.

15:3 πανέδςηα βὰν ὑι῔κ ἐκ πνώημζξ, 130 ὅηζ Χνζζηὸξ ἀπέεακεκ ὑπὲν η῵κ ἁιανηζ῵κ ἡι῵κ
For I handed on to you, in the very first things, that Christ died for our sins,

15:4 ηαὶ ὅηζ ἐηάθδ, ηαὶ ὅηζ ἐβήβενηαζ ηῆ ἡιένᾳ ηῆ ηνίηῃ, 131
and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day,

15:11 εἴηε μὗκ ἐβὼ εἴηε ἐηε῔κμζ, μὕηςξ ηδνύζζμιεκ ηαὶ μὕηςξ ἐπζζηεύζαηε.
Therefore whether I or they, so we preach and so you believe.

Marcionite 1 Corinthians Interliner
Reconstruction

by Stuart G. Waugh 18 February, 2013

Jake Jones IV

I've been reading Sebastian Moll's doctoral thesis. He references a source indicating that the words, "Christ died for our sins", were probably not in the Marcion version of 1 Cor: 15.3.

http://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/5817

Quote:

Despite the obvious importance that soteriology has to Marcion, the traditional portrait of him being above all a loyal disciple of Paul must be regarded as more than exaggerated (see Chapter IV), for even in the two men’s interpretation of Christ’s death we find a substantial difference.
This is not the time for a complete evaluation of Paul’s position on this matter, but in order to point out the crucial difference to Marcion it will suffice to say that from Paul’s perspective “Christ died for our sins” (1Cor. 15:3). Marcion probably cut these words out of his edition of the First Letter to the Corinthians.

footnote: 329: Cf. Schmid, Apostolos, p. I/325-326.

<snip>

Moreover, Marcion’s theological dualism does not allow for the Pauline/Lutheran relation of sin and forgiveness, as sin and forgiveness are not dualistic but dialectical, as they presuppose one and the same God.

<snip>

More easily put, one can only be forgiven a sin that one has committed first, but this situation presupposes that the condemnation and the forgiveness of this sin is performed by one and the same agent, which for Paul and Luther obviously was the one God of the two Testaments. Once one separates these two Gods, however, the said dialectic expires, since it does not make any sense for Marcion’s good God to forgive sins which only exist as a violation of the evil God’s Law, the very Law that the good God has come to destroy (see above). Christ did thus not die for our sins, rather by his death he “redeemed us” (Gal. 3:13)

The Arch-Heretic Marcion, Sebastian Moll (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Possibly, "Christ died for our sins" was a later orthodox attempt to bring the Marcion theology into the catholic fold......:constern01:

(Jake, no Marcion = Paul is possible via a theological linkage .........

....)

andrewcriddle · 03-09-2013, 03:27 AM

There may be an ambiguity in what we mean by creed. I don't think the passage in 1 Corinthians 15 was for example part of a statement of belief required of people joining the early Christian church.

However it does claim to be part of official teaching passed on to Paul apparently in a more or less fixed form.

Andrew Criddle

Ken Brown · 03-09-2013, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

There may be an ambiguity in what we mean by creed. I don't think the passage in 1 Corinthians 15 was for example part of a statement of belief required of people joining the early Christian church.

However it does claim to be part of official teaching passed on to Paul apparently in a more or less fixed form.

Andrew Criddle

Hi Andrew, I can agree with you that Paul's statement is not a creed, it's a teaching that started with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. KB

ficino · 03-09-2013, 04:10 AM

Thanks for the links, guys. I never knew about the Marcionite gospel or Marcionite quotations. I did find and read Price's paper, linked above, after I posted this. It will take time for me to wrap my head around this stuff.

maryhelena · 03-09-2013, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

There may be an ambiguity in what we mean by creed. I don't think the passage in 1 Corinthians 15 was for example part of a statement of belief required of people joining the early Christian church.

However it does claim to be part of official teaching passed on to Paul apparently in a more or less fixed form.

Andrew Criddle

Hi Andrew, I can agree with you that Paul's statement is not a creed, it's a teaching that started with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. KB

Yes, and looks like Paul adds the bit about Christ dying "...for our sins" to the JC storyline from gLuke:

Quote:

1 Cor. 15:3-8

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Quote:

Luke 24: 19-24

About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”

And gLuke, interestingly, by mentioning to "redeem Israel", is acknowledging the storyline in Slavonic Josephus:

Quote:

But when they saw his power, that he accomplished everything that he would by word, they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us.

The teachers of the Law were [therefore] envenomed with envy and gave thirty talents to Pilate, in order that he should put him to death.

And they took him and crucified him according to the ancestral law.

-----------------

And it was said that after he was put to death, yea after burial in the grave, he was not found.

Some then assert that he is risen.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-3.htm

Ken Brown · 03-09-2013, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Andrew, I can agree with you that Paul's statement is not a creed, it's a teaching that started with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. KB

Yes, and looks like Paul adds the bit about Christ dying "...for our sins" to the JC storyline from gLuke:

And gLuke, interestingly, by mentioning to "redeem Israel", is acknowledging the storyline in Slavonic Josephus:

Quote:

But when they saw his power, that he accomplished everything that he would by word, they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us.

The teachers of the Law were [therefore] envenomed with envy and gave thirty talents to Pilate, in order that he should put him to death.

And they took him and crucified him according to the ancestral law.

-----------------

And it was said that after he was put to death, yea after burial in the grave, he was not found.

Some then assert that he is risen.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-3.htm

Hi maryhelena, Paul's use of the phrase "for our sins" has been interpreted improperly by traditional christians. There should be no aspect with respect to a "paying off" or a "dying in the stead" meaning to this phrase. It should be more along the lines of "for the sake" of our sin, for it's removal from our lives.

Here are two Scriptures that convey the purpose of "dying for the sake of our sins":

Acts 3:25 - 3:26

(25) Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which יהוה made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. (26) Unto you first יהוה, having raised up his Son Yahushua, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

And:

2Tim 2:19

Nevertheless the foundation of יהוה standeth sure, having this seal, יהוה knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of the Messiah depart from iniquity.

The Messiah died because of or for the sake of our sin so that we could be blessed in departing or turning from iniquity/sin. He did not die in our stead to pay any penalty for sin...that is a delusional gospel. KB

aa5874 · 03-09-2013, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Andrew, I can agree with you that Paul's statement is not a creed, it's a teaching that started with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. KB

Yes, and looks like Paul adds the bit about Christ dying "...for our sins" to the JC storyline from gLuke:

And gLuke, interestingly, by mentioning to "redeem Israel", is acknowledging the storyline in Slavonic Josephus:

Quote:

But when they saw his power, that he accomplished everything that he would by word, they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us.

The teachers of the Law were [therefore] envenomed with envy and gave thirty talents to Pilate, in order that he should put him to death.

And they took him and crucified him according to the ancestral law.

-----------------

And it was said that after he was put to death, yea after burial in the grave, he was not found.

Some then assert that he is risen.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-3.htm

Hi maryhelena, Paul's use of the phrase "for our sins" has been interpreted improperly by traditional christians. There should be no aspect with respect to a "paying off" or a "dying in the stead" meaning to this phrase. It should be more along the lines of "for the sake" of our sin, for it's removal from our lives.

Here are two Scriptures that convey the purpose of "dying for the sake of our sins":

Acts 3:25 - 3:26

(25) Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which יהוה made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. (26) Unto you first יהוה, having raised up his Son Yahushua, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

And:

2Tim 2:19

Nevertheless the foundation of יהוה standeth sure, having this seal, יהוה knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of the Messiah depart from iniquity.

The Messiah died because of or for the sake of our sin so that we could be blessed in departing or turning from iniquity/sin. He did not die in our stead to pay any penalty for sin...that is a delusional gospel. KB

Acts of the Apostles and 2 Timothy are late sources and one is a source of fiction the other a forgery.

Those writings are historically and theologically bogus. It is extremely likely that Christians of the Jesus cult never saw Acts of the Apostles and 2 Timothy until the last quarter of 2nd century or later.

Iskander · 03-09-2013, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ficino

I apologize if this topic has already been hashed out to death; if so, I'll be grateful for links to threads where it has been discussed. Is there any consensus among NON-seminary academics about whether Paul's words at the beginning of I Corinthians 15 ("I handed on to you what I received...") preserve the language of a creed from the 30s C.E., and are not original words of Paul? I note that Paul uses the same παρέδωκα... παρέλαβον... ότι combination in I Cor. 11:23, but there he adds "from the Lord," as though he traces his account of the Last Supper to direct revelation from Christ and not to oral tradition from disciples who were in the movement earlier than he. So why should we think that his words in I Cor 15 represent a "creed" that he picked up from Cephas and/or other supposed eyewitnesses of the empty tomb?

Early creed in I Corinthians 15?

Adolf Harnack writes:

1 Corinthians

Quote:

That letter to the Corinthians proves that, by the end of the first century, the Roman Church had already drawn up fixed rules for her own guidance,

Page 132 in History of Dogma - Volume II, by Adolf Harnack, Christian Classics Ethereal Library

This statement says that if the Epistle is accepted as authentic, then the conclusion must be that Christianity already had a core of fixed beliefs: an early creed.

I don’t know if this is answering your question.

ficino · 03-09-2013, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by ficino

I apologize if this topic has already been hashed out to death; if so, I'll be grateful for links to threads where it has been discussed. Is there any consensus among NON-seminary academics about whether Paul's words at the beginning of I Corinthians 15 ("I handed on to you what I received...") preserve the language of a creed from the 30s C.E., and are not original words of Paul? I note that Paul uses the same παρέδωκα... παρέλαβον... ότι combination in I Cor. 11:23, but there he adds "from the Lord," as though he traces his account of the Last Supper to direct revelation from Christ and not to oral tradition from disciples who were in the movement earlier than he. So why should we think that his words in I Cor 15 represent a "creed" that he picked up from Cephas and/or other supposed eyewitnesses of the empty tomb?

Early creed in I Corinthians 15?

Adolf Harnack writes:

1 Corinthians

Quote:

That letter to the Corinthians proves that, by the end of the first century, the Roman Church had already drawn up fixed rules for her own guidance,

Page 132 in History of Dogma - Volume II, by Adolf Harnack, Christian Classics Ethereal Library

This statement says that if the Epistle is accepted as authentic, then the conclusion must be that Christianity already had a core of fixed beliefs: an early creed.

I don’t know if this is answering your question.

Thanks, but my understanding is that Harnack believed the portion of I Cor 15 in question was interpolated. If Harnack is allowing that the epistle may be from the end of the first century, then he's not asserting it's authentic, i.e. not asserting it must be by the historical Paul.

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03-09-2013, 03:27 AM	#23
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	There may be an ambiguity in what we mean by creed. I don't think the passage in 1 Corinthians 15 was for example part of a statement of belief required of people joining the early Christian church. However it does claim to be part of official teaching passed on to Paul apparently in a more or less fixed form. Andrew Criddle

03-09-2013, 04:10 AM	#25
ficino Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York Posts: 252	Thanks for the links, guys. I never knew about the Marcionite gospel or Marcionite quotations. I did find and read Price's paper, linked above, after I posted this. It will take time for me to wrap my head around this stuff.

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