Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 03-17-2012, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

But why can other works be interpolated and changed and redacted but not Acts, or at least the Paul portions of Acts were combined with writings earlier in the text? In any event, the portions dealing with PAUL show that he doesn't mention a SINGLE aphorism of his Christ, shows no interest in visiting any places the gospel Jesus was, and doesn't invoke a single story from the gospels...

Acts of the Apostles may have been manipulated but I CANNOT MAKE SUCH AN ARGUMENT until I find the evidence of antiquity to support it.

However, there is enough evidence to show that the Pauline writings do NOT reflect history, were written some time after the mid 2nd century to distort the history of the Jesus cult.

Duvduv · 03-18-2012, 06:30 AM

Someone in the fourth or fifth century decided it was of a disadvantage that the gospels never mentioned Paul, so he decided to create the prophecy appearing in the Epistola Apostolarum. Given the fact that the official church regime was said to have destroyed texts that did not comply with their system, it is rather amazing that even apocrypha would have survived, including what they would have viewed as a totally fictitious "prophecy" about Paul that they refused to include in a canonical text.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

What about this scenario, AA??
Pagans put together epistles for a celestial god savior. Then others in the empire argued that this was not "Jewish" enough in flavor and that a full-fledged story like the Torah is actually necessary, so the gospel of Mark was produced.

Then it was felt that the gospel of Mark didn't handle sufficiently the idea of the Jewish messiah, so someone put together Matthew. The reaction, was "Hey, that's good, but maybe this version is TOO Jewish for non-Jews who like aspects of Judaism but who like remaining gentiles."

So they put together Luke as a book like a biblical story with expansions along the lines of Josephus. It seemed that this was sufficient in terms of now attracting many elements in the empire. Except that there were gnostics and mystic pagans. So they put together GJohn to satisfy those people and determined that FOUR was good enough along with the epistles.

But of course there were many freelancers around who wrote their own texts as midrashic style stories that didn't always comply with the teachings of the official system.

The only issue is why "blessed Paul" wasn't included in an official gospel story as he is prophecied in the Epistola Apostolarum.

You just have to PROVIDE the sources for your scenario. I am done with IMAGINATION and Speculation.

Think about it.

There are BILLIONS of people in the world so we will NOT ever have enough time to look at every one's IMAGINATION.

Keep thinking now.

If you have NO source for what you have IMAGINED then there is NO need to explore your scenario.

I want to EXPLORE EVIDENCE and Sources of antiquity.

We have the Short-Ending gMark, the Long Ending gMark, gMatthew and gLuke.

These writers did NOT know of the Pauline Jesus and they were all written AFTER the Fall of the Temple.

The History of the Church has been BUSTED.

There was NO Jesus cult or churches UNTIL AFTER c 70 CE.

Duvduv · 03-19-2012, 06:38 AM

If there was so much persecution of heretics by the orthodox then why and how did people manage to stay busy and write so many texts that diverged from rhe official canon as Apocrypha or gnostic texts during the same period?

la70119 · 03-20-2012, 11:10 PM

Thanks for the sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Some of the Talmudic references were censored out of the Babylonian Talmud several hundred years ago by Church censors. There are several books in English that discuss the subject aside from the direct Talmudic references. One is by Frank Zindler called The Jesus Jews Never Knew. Another is Jesus in the Talmud by Peter Schafer.
There are a couple of sites that have parts of the Talmud translated into English. Here are a few references:

Tractate Shabbat, pages 104b and 116a
Tractate Avodah Zarah pages 16b, 17a
Tractate Sanhedrin pages 67a and 103a (43a doesn't appear in most standard Talmuds) and 107b.
Tractate Sotah 47a
Zindler's book lists more sources from the Tosefta collection after the Mishnas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

duvduv, where in the Talmud did you get that info? I never heard of it before.

Duvduv · 03-21-2012, 05:52 AM

I don't understand how so many texts could have been produced under conditions of ongoing persecution by the regime unless they were all created beyond its reach, including apocryphal writings.
For that matter, if a canon already existed, what was the purpose of the apocryphal writings that may not have technically been considered heretical?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

If there was so much persecution of heretics by the orthodox then why and how did people manage to stay busy and write so many texts that diverged from rhe official canon as Apocrypha or gnostic texts during the same period?

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03-19-2012, 06:38 AM	#463
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	If there was so much persecution of heretics by the orthodox then why and how did people manage to stay busy and write so many texts that diverged from rhe official canon as Apocrypha or gnostic texts during the same period?

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