spamandham

The mystical number is 12, with an occasional 13, to match the number of new moons in a year.

Ben C Smith

There is no need to go so far afield. Surely there is a connection between the 12 disciples and the 12 tribes of Israel.

Ben.

spamandham

Certainly there is such a connection. The 12 disciples are a resyncretization of pagan ideas with Jewish ideas, which were originally branched off from pagan ideas.

Ben C Smith

In seeking the reason(s) behind the choice of the number 12 for a group of disciples (whether by Jesus himself or by later tradents), what does reference to the zodiac or the number of months in a year add to the mix that the 12 tribes of Israel, as part a general Jewish literary proclivity for the number 12, does not?

Ben.

spamandham

To focus on only the latter ignores the influence of the former. Christianity is not merely the progression of Jewish ideas. It's the syncretization of Jewish and pagan ideas. The number 12 was important to both, because it has the same origin for both.

Ben C Smith

Christians claimed to be the true heirs of Judaism. They did not claim to be the heirs of paganism. Where the Jewish angle fails, I am more than willing to look to Greco-Roman (pagan) influences. In this case the Jewish angle does not fail; the 12 tribes of Israel (along with the Jewish emphasis on this number in general) explains the 12 disciples without remainder.

Ben.

spamandham

Christianity flourished among both Jews and gentiles. If it was a syncretization of both ideas, you would expect it to contain elements of both, which it does, including the point you mentioned.

Ben C Smith

Lucky break both pagans and Jews liked the number 12, then, right?

It sounds as if you think either Jesus or the early Christian tradents picked the number 12 for both reasons, pagan and Jewish, about equally. How would you set about demonstrating that?

Do you honestly think early Christianity is as closely allied to paganism as to Judaism?

Ben.

spamandham

If the history of both religions had a common origin, and that common origin were obsessed with the number 12, then no luck would be required. That's the argument I started with, that you didn't like.

Analyze the text to see if there are ideas or phrases unique to both traditions.

Yes. That's why the gentile christian movement was so strong.

Ben C Smith

Exactly. We have Matthew 19.28 (refer also to Luke 22.30):

And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man will sit on his glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This rationale for having 12 disciples is obviously unique to Judaism.

So what do you have that is unique to paganism?

Ben.