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Old 08-03-2012, 10:51 AM   #31
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Then I can ask the same question I ask about the First Apology of Justin. Here too we find a description of an alleged sect written by a Jew who does not identify the communities, leaders, teachers, etc. of the Therapeutae, and is the same writer as the one who talks about the Logos.

How do you know that "Philo" was not the product of a creative writing class in the local university among the philosopher types?

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Whatever is called the writings of Philo which was in the possession of the Church cannot possibly have been immune from cutting and pasting or composites. Whoever wrote all about the Logos was not a Jew. I don't necessarily fault ancient editors since in many cases they probably thought that scrolls or codices that resembled each other in style or subject were written by the same person, and they mistakenly combined them.

However it must have escaped them to notice that whoever wrote things under the name of Philo the Jew (whether an actual Philo or someone else) wrote nothing about a famous messianic figure in Judea called Jesus in the first century because this messianic figure did not exist in the first century.
Philo wrote about the Therapeutae, whose beliefs and practices match Jesus teachings and his actions. Philo chose not to identify individuals of the Therapeutae by name but we can infer inductively he was discussing Jesus and his followers by his description of their beliefs and practices.
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Old 08-03-2012, 11:08 AM   #32
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Then I can ask the same question I ask about the First Apology of Justin. Here too we find a description of an alleged sect written by a Jew who does not identify the communities, leaders, teachers, etc. of the Therapeutae, and is the same writer as the one who talks about the Logos.

How do you know that "Philo" was not the product of a creative writing class in the local university among the philosopher types?

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Originally Posted by pinkvoy View Post

Philo wrote about the Therapeutae, whose beliefs and practices match Jesus teachings and his actions. Philo chose not to identify individuals of the Therapeutae by name but we can infer inductively he was discussing Jesus and his followers by his description of their beliefs and practices.
This summarizes our source
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Philo (20 B.C.–50 A.D.), known also as Philo of Alexandria (Greek: Φίλων ὁ Ἀλεξανδρεύς), Philo Judaeus, Philo Judaeus of Alexandria, Yedidia, "Philon", and Philo the Jew, was a Hellenistic Jewish Biblical philosopher born in Alexandria.

The few biographical details concerning Philo are found in his own works, especially in Legatio ad Gaium ("embassy to Gaius"), and in Josephus.[3] The only event in his life that can be determined chronologically is his participation in the embassy in which the Alexandrian Jews were sent to the emperor Caligula at Rome as the result of civil strife between the Alexandrian Jewish and Greek communities. This occurred in the year 40 CE.

Ancestry, family and early life

Philo was probably born with the name Julius Philo. Philo came from an aristocratic family which had lived in Alexandria for generations. His ancestors and family were contemporaries to the rule of the Ptolemaic dynasty and the rule of the Seleucid Empire. Although the names of his parents are unknown, Philo came from a family who were noble, honourable and wealthy. It was either his father or paternal grandfather who was granted Roman citizenship from Roman dictator Gaius Julius Caesar. Philo had two brothers Alexander the Alabarch and Lysimachus.

His ancestors and family had social ties and connections to the Priesthood in Judea; Hasmonean Dynasty; Herodian Dynasty and Julio-Claudian dynasty in Rome, though It is likely that Philo only visited the Temple in Jerusalem once in his lifetime.[4] Philo would have been a contemporary to Jesus of Nazareth and his Apostles. Philo along with his brothers received a thorough education. They were educated in the Hellenistic culture of Alexandria and Roman culture, to a degree in Ancient Egyptian culture and particularly in the traditions of Judaism, in the study of Jewish traditional literature[5] and in Greek philosophy.

Philo, through his brother Alexander, had two nephews Tiberius Julius Alexander and Marcus Julius Alexander. Marcus Julius Alexander was the first husband of the Herodian Princess Berenice. Marcus died in 43 or 44. (For the sources regarding this section see article Alexander the Alabarch).
Biography

We find a brief reference to Philo by the 1st-century Jewish historian Josephus. In Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus tells of Philo's selection by the Alexandrian Jewish community as their principal representative before the Roman emperor Gaius Caligula. He says that Philo agreed to represent the Alexandrian Jews in regard to civil disorder that had developed between the Jews and the Greeks in Alexandria (Egypt). Josephus also tells us that Philo was skilled in philosophy, and that he was brother to an official called Alexander the alabarch.[6] According to Josephus, Philo and the larger Jewish community refused to treat the emperor as a god, to erect statues in honor of the emperor, and to build altars and temples to the emperor. Josephus says Philo believed that God actively supported this refusal.

Josephus' comments about Philo are so brief that we can quote them here in full:

"There was now a tumult arisen at Alexandria, between the Jewish inhabitants and the Greeks; and three ambassadors were chosen out of each party that were at variance, who came to Gaius. Now one of these ambassadors from the people of Alexandria was Apion, (29) who uttered many blasphemies against the Jews; and, among other things that he said, he charged them with neglecting the honors that belonged to Caesar; for that while all who were subject to the Roman empire built altars and temples to Gaius, and in other regards universally received him as they received the gods, these Jews alone thought it a dishonorable thing for them to erect statues in honor of him, as well as to swear by his name. Many of these severe things were said by Apion, by which he hoped to provoke Gaius to anger at the Jews, as he was likely to be. But Philo, the principal of the Jewish embassage, a man eminent on all accounts, brother to Alexander the alabarch, (30) and one not unskillful in philosophy, was ready to betake himself to make his defense against those accusations; but Gaius prohibited him, and bid him begone; he was also in such a rage, that it openly appeared he was about to do them some very great mischief. So Philo being thus affronted, went out, and said to those Jews who were about him, that they should be of good courage, since Gaius's words indeed showed anger at them, but in reality had already set God against himself." [Antiquities of the Jews, xviii.8, § 1, Whiston's translation (online)]

Our remaining information about Philo is based upon his own writings. Philo himself claims in his Embassy to Gaius to have been part of an embassy sent by the Alexandrian Jews to the Roman Emperor Caligula. Philo says he was carrying a petition which described the sufferings of the Alexandrian Jews, and which asked the emperor to secure their rights. Philo gives a detailed description of their sufferings, in a way that Josephus overlooks, to assert that the Alexandrian Jews were simply the victims of attacks by Alexandrian Greeks in the civil strife that had left many Jews and Greeks dead. Philo says he was regarded by his people as having unusual prudence, due to his age, education, and knowledge. This indicates that he was already an older man at this time (40 CE). Philo considers Caligula's plan to erect a statue of himself in the temple of Jerusalem to be a provocation, saying, "Are you making war upon us, because you anticipate that we will not endure such indignity, but that we will fight on behalf of our laws, and die in defence of our national customs? For you cannot possibly have been ignorant of what was likely to result from your attempt to introduce these innovations respecting our temple." In his entire presentation he implicitly supports the Jewish commitment to rebel against the emperor rather than allow such sacrilege to take place. This reveals Philo's identification with the Jewish community. [Embassy to Gaius, Chapter 28-31, Yonge's translation (online)].

In Flaccus, Philo tells indirectly of his own life in Alexandria by describing how the situation of Jews in Alexandria Egypt changed after Gaius Caligula became the emperor of Rome. Speaking of the large Jewish population in Egypt, Philo says that Alexandria "had two classes of inhabitants, our own nation and the people of the country, and that the whole of Egypt was inhabited in the same manner, and that Jews who inhabited Alexandria and the rest of the country from the Catabathmos on the side of Libya to the boundaries of Ethiopia were not less than a million of men." Regarding the large proportion of Jews in Alexandria, he writes, "There are five districts in the city, named after the first five letters of the written alphabet, of these two are called the quarters of the Jews, because the chief portion of the Jews lives in them." Other sources tell us that Caligula had been asking to receive the honors due to a god. Philo says Flaccus, the Roman governor over Alexandria, permitted a mob to erect statues of the Emperor Caius Caligula in Jewish synagogues of Alexandria, an unprecedented provocation. This invasion of the synagogues was perhaps resisted by force, since Philo then says that Flaccus "was destroying the synagogues, and not leaving even their name." In response, Philo says that Flaccus then "issued a notice in which he called us all foreigners and aliens... allowing any one who was inclined to proceed to exterminate the Jews as prisoners of war." Philo says that in response, the mobs "drove the Jews entirely out of four quarters, and crammed them all into a very small portion of one ... while the populace, overrunning their desolate houses, turned to plunder, and divided the booty among themselves as if they had obtained it in war." In addition, Philo says their enemies, "slew them and thousands of others with all kinds of agony and tortures, and newly invented cruelties, for wherever they met with or caught sight of a Jew, they stoned him, or beat him with sticks". Philo even says, "the most merciless of all their persecutors in some instances burnt whole families, husbands with their wives, and infant children with their parents, in the middle of the city, sparing neither age nor youth, nor the innocent helplessness of infants." Some men, he says, were dragged to death, while "those who did these things, mimicked the sufferers, like people employed in the representation of theatrical farces". Other Jews were crucified. Flaccus was eventually removed from office and exiled, ultimately suffering the punishment of death. [Flaccus, Chapters 6 - 9 (43, 53-56, 62, 66, 68, 71-72), Yonge's translation (online)].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo

Do you have any credible evidence from credible historians that would suggest the above statements are untrue?
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Old 08-03-2012, 11:23 AM   #33
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You're portraying wishful thinking and significant conflation ... nothing 'self-evident" about your non-inductive proposal.
that's exactly what I think about the claim of certain Jesus myth - i.e Archaya and Robert Price, the idea that every element of the story of Gospel Jesus conforms to the Mythic Hero Archetype

rice summarizes his position as followed:
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"Jesus' mother Mary is a virgin, though not of royal blood, though later apocrypha, as if to fill the lack, do make Mary Davidic. Joseph is "of the house of David," though he does not reign, but that is just the point: his heir, the true Davidic king, is coming. Mary and Joseph are not related. Jesus' conception is certainly unusual, being virginal and miraculous. Jesus is the Son of God, as more and more people begin to recognize. He is immeadiately persecuted by the reigning king, Herod the Great. In most hero tales, the persecutor is not only the reigning king but also the hero's father who may fear his son overthrowing him. This role has been split in the Jesus story, Joseph being a royal heir but not king, while another, Herod, sits on Joseph's rightful throne. Fleeing persecution, the hero takes refuge in a distant land, egypt. Mary is not a foster parent, though Joseph is. There are no details about Jesus' childhood or upbringing. The one apparent exception, Jesus' visit to the temple when he is bar-mitzvah age (Luke 2:41-52), is itself a frequent hero mytheme, that of a child prodigy.
"Jesus goes to Jerusalem to be acclaimed as king, though he eschews worldly power. Nonetheless he comes into conflict with the rulers as if he had. He does not marry (though, again, as if to fill the gap, pious speculation has always suspected he married Mary Magdalene). Does Jesus have a peaceful reign, issuing laws? Not exactly. But while enjoying popular esteem as King of the Jews, for the moment unmolested, he does hold forth in the temple court, issuing teachings and moral commandments. Suddenly the once-ardent followers turn on him, demanding his blood. They drive Jesus out of the city to be crucified atop the hill of Golgotha. Though he is temporarily buried, his tomb turns up empty, and later various sites were nominated as his burial place. He has no children, except in modern additions to the Jesus story in which he founded the Merovingian dynasty of medieval France.
"The more the narrative resembles myth more than history, the more likely it is myth, and not history"
wishful thinking and conflation - you can pretty much take any biography of antiquity - Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Plato - and conflate it with a universal archetype and dismiss it all as more myth than history.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:08 PM   #34
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The Therapeutae were a Jewish sect in which flourished in Alexandria

And jesus sect didnt even flourish in Galilee where he was located and traveled.


It was a failed movement in judaism


it only flourished after his death in the the roman communities.





you cant tie any part of jesus or the early jewish sect to Alexandria in any way shape or form
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:29 PM   #35
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The Therapeutae were a Jewish sect in which flourished in Alexandria

And jesus sect didnt even flourish in Galilee where he was located and traveled.


It was a failed movement in judaism


it only flourished after his death in the the roman communities.





you cant tie any part of jesus or the early jewish sect to Alexandria in any way shape or form
Philo does that himself ---

According to Philo, the Therapeutae were widely distributed in the Ancient world, among the Greeks and beyond in the non-Greek world of the "Barbarians", with one of their major gathering points being in Alexandria, in the area of the Lake Mareotis:

"Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians should partake of whatever is perfectly good; and there is the greatest number of such men in Egypt, in every one of the districts, or nomes, as they are called, and especially around Alexandria; and from all quarters those who are the best of these therapeutae proceed on their pilgrimage to some most suitable place as if it were their country, which is beyond the Maereotic lake."
—Philo, Ascetics III[3]


What does the phrase "widely distributed in the Ancient world" mean?
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:09 PM   #36
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- you can pretty much take any biography of antiquity - Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Plato - and conflate it with a universal archetype and dismiss it all as more myth than history.
You claim is hopelessly absurd.

I invite you to read Suetonius "Lives of the Twelve Caesars" and the Four Canonised Gospels.

Virtually EVERYTHING in the Gospels about Jesus is TOTAL Fiction or Implausible.

The Jesus stories are Myth Fables about the Resurrected Son of a God.

Tiberius the Emperor of Rome a contemporary of the supposed Jesus is found in "the Lives of the Twelve Caesars".

See http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...Tiberius*.html

Life of Tiberius
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1 Some have supposed that Tiberius was born at Fundi, on no better evidence than that his maternal grandmother was a native of that place, and that later a statue of Good Fortune was set up there by decree of the senate. But according to the most numerous and trustworthy authorities, he was born at Rome, on the Palatine, the sixteenth day before the Kalends of December, in the consulship of Marcus Aemilius Lepidus and Lucius Munatius Plancus (the former for the second time) while the war of Philippi was going on. In fact it is so recorded both in the calendar and in the public gazette....
Now, examine gMatthew on the Birth of Jesus.

Matthew 1:18 KJV
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Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together , she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
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Old 08-03-2012, 07:28 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by outhouse View Post


And jesus sect didnt even flourish in Galilee where he was located and traveled.


It was a failed movement in judaism


it only flourished after his death in the the roman communities.





you cant tie any part of jesus or the early jewish sect to Alexandria in any way shape or form
Philo does that himself ---

According to Philo, the Therapeutae were widely distributed in the Ancient world, among the Greeks and beyond in the non-Greek world of the "Barbarians", with one of their major gathering points being in Alexandria, in the area of the Lake Mareotis:

"Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians should partake of whatever is perfectly good; and there is the greatest number of such men in Egypt, in every one of the districts, or nomes, as they are called, and especially around Alexandria; and from all quarters those who are the best of these therapeutae proceed on their pilgrimage to some most suitable place as if it were their country, which is beyond the Maereotic lake."
—Philo, Ascetics III[3]


What does the phrase "widely distributed in the Ancient world" mean?


it doesnt say anything about a poor poverty stricken jewish Galilean teacher/healer who ONLY travels Galilee and to the temple where he is put to death.


we know by pauls writing, details that do not fit in with your peronal account.

Lived in Nazareth, traveled Galilee has nothing to do with Alexandria


your talking about a sect in 30 CE that was larger then the jesus movement strickly in judaism that started in Galilee with heavy zealot influences, after teachings by John the Baptist.



Your trying to create something that has no historicity at all, and no backing at all to try and tie in Philos writings
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:15 PM   #38
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Philo does that himself ---

According to Philo, the Therapeutae were widely distributed in the Ancient world, among the Greeks and beyond in the non-Greek world of the "Barbarians", with one of their major gathering points being in Alexandria, in the area of the Lake Mareotis:

"Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians should partake of whatever is perfectly good; and there is the greatest number of such men in Egypt, in every one of the districts, or nomes, as they are called, and especially around Alexandria; and from all quarters those who are the best of these therapeutae proceed on their pilgrimage to some most suitable place as if it were their country, which is beyond the Maereotic lake."
—Philo, Ascetics III[3]


What does the phrase "widely distributed in the Ancient world" mean?


it doesnt say anything about a poor poverty stricken jewish Galilean teacher/healer who ONLY travels Galilee and to the temple where he is put to death.


we know by pauls writing, details that do not fit in with your peronal account.

Lived in Nazareth, traveled Galilee has nothing to do with Alexandria


your talking about a sect in 30 CE that was larger then the jesus movement strickly in judaism that started in Galilee with heavy zealot influences, after teachings by John the Baptist.



Your trying to create something that has no historicity at all, and no backing at all to try and tie in Philos writings
what does Philo's phrase ""Now this class of persons may be met with in many places,"

mean?
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:16 PM   #39
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it doesnt say anything about a poor poverty stricken jewish Galilean teacher/healer who ONLY travels Galilee and to the temple where he is put to death.


we know by pauls writing, details that do not fit in with your peronal account.

Lived in Nazareth, traveled Galilee has nothing to do with Alexandria


your talking about a sect in 30 CE that was larger then the jesus movement strickly in judaism that started in Galilee with heavy zealot influences, after teachings by John the Baptist.



Your trying to create something that has no historicity at all, and no backing at all to try and tie in Philos writings
what does Philo's phrase ""Now this class of persons may be met with in many places,"

mean?
it means this sect was widespread.


now your mission is to tie it into a Galilean version, can you? No you cannot. jesus sect was so small it failed early on in judaism and was never widspread in judaism

it failed in judaism and in fact was not widespread.



there were 4 main sects of judaism with many subsects

and as far as jesus sect based on cultural anthropology we know based on biblical sources he was a poor poverty stricken jew who lived a life below that of a peasant in Galilee and never traveled to Alexandria.

jesus is said to have started a sect based on JtB teachings yet no mention of your sect is ever noted? do you fail again?



you have absoluteley nothing to tie jesus to your subsect in any way shape or form
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Old 08-04-2012, 08:53 AM   #40
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what does Philo's phrase ""Now this class of persons may be met with in many places,"

mean?
it means this sect was widespread.


now your mission is to tie it into a Galilean version, can you? No you cannot. jesus sect was so small it failed early on in judaism and was never widspread in judaism

it failed in judaism and in fact was not widespread.



there were 4 main sects of judaism with many subsects

and as far as jesus sect based on cultural anthropology we know based on biblical sources he was a poor poverty stricken jew who lived a life below that of a peasant in Galilee and never traveled to Alexandria.

jesus is said to have started a sect based on JtB teachings yet no mention of your sect is ever noted? do you fail again?



you have absoluteley nothing to tie jesus to your subsect in any way shape or form
Since you admit that the Philo's Jewish healers were widespread and Galilee is a place, his Jewish healers are also to be found there.

So you have a priori grounds for discounting Philo's Jewish healers in Galilee.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

I guess you're on stage 2 now.

Before I start replying what evidence do you have that can esbalish these statements
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