Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 12-25-2006, 12:10 PM

Paget's article may be purchased here for those without library access or a subscription.

eta: there is also a paper by Alice Whealey here - "THE TESTIMONIUM FLAVIANUM CONTROVERSY FROM ANTIQUITY TO THE PRESENT"

Toto · 12-25-2006, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I'm not calling Goldberg's site a recent defense, I'm calling the argument that the "acceptable portions" of the TF are "statistically similar" to Luke 24 a "recent" defense of the TF, by recent I mean something that has come up in the last 10-15 years. I just used his site as an example of the basic issue.

...

I am not aware of anyone else who has picked up that argument or commented on it.

Roger Pearse · 12-25-2006, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Paget's article may be purchased here for those without library access or a subscription.

I.e. those of us whose taxes pay for the academic's training, salary, research, and who pay for the publication and pay to purchase copies for research libraries to make it available to those same academics... we get to pay again to see it <disgust>. (Pardon me, but this scam really hacks me off).

Quote:

eta: there is also a paper by Alice Whealey here - "THE TESTIMONIUM FLAVIANUM CONTROVERSY FROM ANTIQUITY TO THE PRESENT"

Very much worth reading also.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Amaleq13 · 12-25-2006, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

It is quite hard for my ignorant eyes to see what it says that would be useful to anyone in antiquity.

Doesn't Eusebius make it clear why he considers this reference to be useful?:

If, then, even the historian's evidence shews that He attracted to Himself not only the twelve Apostles, nor the seventy disciples, but had in addition many Jews and Greeks, He must evidently have had some extraordinary power beyond that of other men.

Roger Pearse · 12-26-2006, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Doesn't Eusebius make it clear why he considers this reference to be useful?:

If, then, even the historian's evidence shews that He attracted to Himself not only the twelve Apostles, nor the seventy disciples, but had in addition many Jews and Greeks, He must evidently have had some extraordinary power beyond that of other men.

I had not remembered this, actually (!). But is it much of a reason, or one that couldn't be supported by many other sources? Tertullian makes a similar sort of argument without using Josephus.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Ben C Smith · 12-26-2006, 06:45 AM

Ken Olson makes some rather powerful arguments in XTalk post 4869 that Eusebius found the Testimonium useful in virtually every respect.

Ben.

Roger Pearse · 12-26-2006, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Ken Olson makes some rather powerful arguments in XTalk post 4869 that Eusebius found the Testimonium useful in virtually every respect.

I found Olson's arguments unconvincing, since it was unclear to what extent the same arguments would show just the same for a randomly chosen portion of Eusebius' opus.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Malachi151 · 12-26-2006, 07:08 AM

To repeat a question:

Does anyone have a translation of the Table of Contents of Antiquities, especially regarding book 18?

ynquirer · 12-26-2006, 07:18 AM

Christopher Price's reply to Olson, here, is worth looking into.

Malachi151 · 12-26-2006, 07:37 AM

Another question, does anyone have more of the context of the passage that paraphrases the TF in Arabic? I need this in English translation, hopefully on the Internet.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topic.../josephus.html

Quote:

Arabic summary, presumably of Antiquities 18.63. From Agapios' Kitab al-'Unwan ("Book of the Title," 10th c.).

The translation belongs to Shlomo Pines. See also James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism.

Similarly Josephus the Hebrew. For he says in the treatises that he has written on the governance of the Jews:
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to themafter his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

What exactly was Agapios talking about here? What was his reason for making this reference?

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12-25-2006, 12:10 PM	#11
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Paget's article may be purchased here for those without library access or a subscription. eta: there is also a paper by Alice Whealey here - "THE TESTIMONIUM FLAVIANUM CONTROVERSY FROM ANTIQUITY TO THE PRESENT"

12-26-2006, 06:45 AM	#16
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	Ken Olson makes some rather powerful arguments in XTalk post 4869 that Eusebius found the Testimonium useful in virtually every respect. Ben.

12-26-2006, 07:08 AM	#18
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	To repeat a question: Does anyone have a translation of the Table of Contents of Antiquities, especially regarding book 18?

12-26-2006, 07:18 AM	#19
ynquirer Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 572	Christopher Price's reply to Olson, here, is worth looking into.

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