Freethought & Rationalism Archive

New Atheist · 01-20-2007, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Atheist

Just skimmed through page 2 and this hit my eye.

This is what I was talking about the danger of translating Greek when you are not familiar with the language, since most words are combinations of two other words, but may have a different meaning.

Prosxero is a word meaning, 'of the now', 'temporary', 'recent'. It does not mean towards season. It means something temporary, something not eternal.

Did some looking out on the net, found this site you might want to look for this,http://www.gospel.gr/lexicon.php?l_id=16 scroll down to προσκαιρα to see the interpretation given (those which last for a limited time)... Since apparently everybody's Greek is better than mine.

jgibson000 · 01-20-2007, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Before we go any further with this, could Chris or Jeffrey point to any errors in New Atheist's explanation of the meaning of aeon?

You mean besides the facts (1) that there is no such word in either Koine or Classical Greek as "AEONAS", and (2) that the word that "New Atheist" (sheesh) apparently meant -- i.e., AENAOS -- did indeed, as is attested from Pindar forward and in the LXX and in Sib. Or. 3, 698; Herm. Wr. 18, 14a; PGM 13, 842; Sb [Sammelbuch; s. Preisigke, Sb=Sammelbuch griech. Urkunden aus ¿gypten I 1915; II 1922; III-V 1927-50 by FBilabel]; PK [Petruskerygma (Preaching of Peter: Kleine Texte, ed. HLietzmann, 3, 13-16)] 8141; 1 Cl 60:1; and Dit., Or. [Orientis Graeci Inscriptiones Selectae, ed. WDittenberger, 2 vols. 1903-5] 56, 48), means "eternal" and (3) that there is, so far as I know, and as LSJ notes,

ae-na^os [a_-], on, ( [naô A] )
A. aennaos Hdt. , aienaos IG5(1).1119 (Geronthrae, iv B. C.); contr. aeinôs Ar.Ra.146, gen. pl. aeinôn Cratin. 20 D.: Trag. only in lyr.:--ever-flowing, krênês t' aenaou kai aporrutou Hes. Op.595 ; a. limnê, potamos, Hdt.1.93,145, cf. Simon.120; potamoi A. Supp..553, E.Ion1083, cf. 118; Acherôn Theoc.15.102 ; aenaou puros Pi.P.1.6 , cf. Call.Ap.83; borboron kai skôr aeinôn Ar. l.c.; aenaoi nephelai Id.Nu.275 ;--generally, everlasting, aretas . . kosmon aenaon te kleos Simon.4.9 ; a. tima, of Zeus, Pi.O.14.12; a. kratos E.Or.1299 (lyr.); aenaois en trapezais, of public hospitality, Pi.N. 11.8; glôttan kalôn logôn aeinôn Cratin.l.c.:--also in Prose, kleos Heraclit.29 ; trophê X.Ages.1.20 ; aenaôteron . . ton olbon parechein Id.Cyr.4.2.44 ; aenaon ousian porisai Pl.Lg.966e ; a. potamôn amêchana megethê Id.Phd.111d , cf. Arist.Mete.349b9; thines LXX Ba.5.7 ; aennaoi tôn theôn prosodoi Procl.Inst.152 . Adv. aenaôs Arist. Oec.1346b15 .

no attestation in ancient Greek of the word being used to mean "century"? Do you mean that?

Jeffrey

jgibson000 · 01-20-2007, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Atheist

Prosxero is a word meaning, 'of the now', 'temporary', 'recent'. It does not mean towards season. It means something temporary, something not eternal.

Leaving aside the fact that Tony has engaged in the etymological fallacy (not to mention that he seems not to have checked his claim about the meaning of PROSKAIRA against LSJ or BDAG), could you please show me where the word "prosxero" appears in any ancient Greek text, let alone where it is used with the meaning you claim it bore?

Jeffrey Gibson

New Atheist · 01-20-2007, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

You mean besides the facts (1) that there is no such word in either Koine or Classical Greek as "AEONAS", and (2) that the word that "New Atheist" (sheesh) apparently meant -- i.e., AENAOS -- did indeed, as is attested from Pindar forward and in the LXX and in Sib. Or. 3, 698; Herm. Wr. 18, 14a; PGM 13, 842; Sb [Sammelbuch; s. Preisigke, Sb=Sammelbuch griech. Urkunden aus ¿gypten I 1915; II 1922; III-V 1927-50 by FBilabel]; PK [Petruskerygma (Preaching of Peter: Kleine Texte, ed. HLietzmann, 3, 13-16)] 8141; 1 Cl 60:1; and Dit., Or. [Orientis Graeci Inscriptiones Selectae, ed. WDittenberger, 2 vols. 1903-5] 56, 48), means "eternal" and (3) that there is, so far as I know, and as LSJ notes,

ae-na^os [a_-], on, ( [naô A] )
A. aennaos Hdt. , aienaos IG5(1).1119 (Geronthrae, iv B. C.); contr. aeinôs Ar.Ra.146, gen. pl. aeinôn Cratin. 20 D.: Trag. only in lyr.:--ever-flowing, krênês t' aenaou kai aporrutou Hes. Op.595 ; a. limnê, potamos, Hdt.1.93,145, cf. Simon.120; potamoi A. Supp..553, E.Ion1083, cf. 118; Acherôn Theoc.15.102 ; aenaou puros Pi.P.1.6 , cf. Call.Ap.83; borboron kai skôr aeinôn Ar. l.c.; aenaoi nephelai Id.Nu.275 ;--generally, everlasting, aretas . . kosmon aenaon te kleos Simon.4.9 ; a. tima, of Zeus, Pi.O.14.12; a. kratos E.Or.1299 (lyr.); aenaois en trapezais, of public hospitality, Pi.N. 11.8; glôttan kalôn logôn aeinôn Cratin.l.c.:--also in Prose, kleos Heraclit.29 ; trophê X.Ages.1.20 ; aenaôteron . . ton olbon parechein Id.Cyr.4.2.44 ; aenaon ousian porisai Pl.Lg.966e ; a. potamôn amêchana megethê Id.Phd.111d , cf. Arist.Mete.349b9; thines LXX Ba.5.7 ; aennaoi tôn theôn prosodoi Procl.Inst.152 . Adv. aenaôs Arist. Oec.1346b15 .

no attestation in ancient Greek of the word being used to mean "century"? Do you mean that?

Jeffrey

HAHAHAHAHAH. No I did not mean aenaos, which yes is a completely different word. Aenaos is actually an adjective not a noun in any case. Aionas or aeonas, I mean the word αιωνaς I'm just not an expert in what we term as Greeklish. so forgive me if I put an e instead of an i in a word that doesn't exist.

Αιωνας does not mean century? Please allow me to ROFLMAO.
Go to the Greek wikipedia site over here and tell me what you think think those links mean: http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%...BD%CE%B5%CF%82

I'll give you a hint, they're a listing of all the centuries, which is what the word αιωνας means after the number.

Or go to this online dictionary over here: http://berlin.cls.yale.edu/picturedi...t=36&ch=0&ph=1

But you'll tell me that it meant a different thing in the Ancient Greek language, which you have no actual evidence to support this assertion other than it's the only explanation that fits your nonsensical theory. I wish I could find an ancient Greek dictionary in the web but apparently can't, so you'll have to take my word for it.

New Atheist · 01-20-2007, 03:22 PM

Here's another linky, a Greek etymological dictionary. Well apparently we learn something every day don't we. Αιων actually comes from αιει, αει which means for ever, so the adjective αιωνιος (eternal) is more correct than the noun αιωνας (century). I'll admit I didn't know that one : http://copernikos.tripod.com/etymologiko.htm

New Atheist · 01-20-2007, 03:43 PM

Here's a final link to a Greek English dictionary, if you wish to look at things yourself. I've saved you the effort:

αιωνας= αιώνας[eónas] ο, gen -ώνα (&L -ώνος)(1)a hundred year period, century (syn L εκατονταετία, εκατονταετηρίδα)προ ενός αιώνος (L), πριν �*ναν αιώνα a century ago | σ' ολόκληρο(ν) αιώνα in a hundred years | στις αρχ�*ς, στο τ�*λος του αιώνα | η επαναστατική ιδεολογία του αιώνα | στις πρώτες δεκαετίες (δεκαετηρίδες) του αιώνα | ~ προπαρασκευής, ~ της Διαφωτίσεως, ~ της μηχανής | η επιστημονική πρόοδος του αιώνα | το σπουδαιότερο βιβλίο του αιώνος μας (Papatsonis) | η αξεδίψαστη θρησκευτική λαχτάρα του αιώνα μας (Theotokas) | στον αιώνα της ατομικής ενεργείας (Melas) | οδοφράγματα στους ν�*ους· και μιλούμε για αιώνα της νεότητας (Palaiologos) | ο θεατής του κινηματογράφου ενός μελλοντικού αιώνα (Theotokas) | σε περασμ�*νους αιώνας (Gryparis) | μουσουργοί του περασμ�*νου αιώνα | στα μ�*σα του 7ου (εβδόμου) αιώνος (Christou) | τοιχογραφίες του 10ου και 11ου αιώνα (Papatsonis) | πύργος από τον 16ο αιώνα (Xenop) | poem αλλ' η ζωή σου εβάσταξε | χρόνια πολλά κ' αιώνες (Markoras).(2)(long) period of time, age, era (syn εποχή)μ�*σοι αιώνες Middle Ages (syn μεσαιωνική εποχή) | στον αιώνα much time | �*ναν αιώνα a long time.�*καμες να 'ρθης �*ναν αιώνα it took you forever to come; �*χω να σε ιδώ �*ναν αιώνα it is an age since I saw you last | ο χρυσός ~ (L ο χρυσούς αιών) the Golden Age | ο ~ του �*ερικλ�*ους (the 5th c. BC; syn of preced) | προ αιώνων a very long time ago | από αιώνες (L αιώνων) from time immemorial | οσμίζοντας το λιβάνι και το κερί που μοσκοβολά από αιώνες κολλημ�*νο απάνου στο θόλο (Kontoglou) | αυτήν την από αιώνων συνεχή παρουσία (του χορού) … μελετάει η λαογραφία (Loukatos) | ούτε θα μαντ�*ψουν στον αιώνα την ύπαρξή μου (Terzakis) nor will they ever guess my existence | θ' απομείνη στον ~ αθάνατος (Prevelakis) | poem για να ευωδάη το �*ργο μου στον ~ (Sikel) | θα το κάνη ίσαμε τη συντ�*λεια των αιώνων (Panagiotop) | (η ανθρωπότης) τρικλίζει χωρίς λογική και χωρίς αρχή αιώνες κ' αιώνες (Palam) | (αυτή η κορύφωση) �*μεινε αιώνες κ' ~ λησμονημ�*νη (Panagiotop).(a)phr στον αιώνα τον άπαντα (εις τον αιώνα τον άπαντα L) forever, ineternum (syn πάντοτε), w. neg neverο κόσμος … ας μην αλλάξη στον αιώνα τον άπαντα (Kazantz) | κι ούτε πρόκειται να το δη στον αιώνα τον άπαντα (Melas) | poem δεν θα σ' τα επιστρ�*ψω στον αιώνα τον άπαντα (Vrettakos).(b)phr στους αιώνες (L αιώνας) των αιώνων or αιώνες αιώνων for ever and ever�*να σύμβολο της ελληνικής παραδόσεως … �*χει συντηρηθεί αιώνες αιώνων (Sfyroeras) | του Mπάυρον η Mούσα … κρατι�*ται και τότε και τώρα και στους αιώνες των αιώνων χωρίς πιστούς (Palam) | poem ζωγράφισες τον κόσμο που διαβαίνει ίδιος πάντα στων αιώνων τους αιώνας (id.) |… να μη σε βρίσκη ο άνεμος | που βασανίζει τους γυμνούς στους αιώνες των αιώνων (Vrettakos).(3)sci t. scientific period of time, ageγεωλογικοί αιώνες geologic eras.(4)philos αιώνες aeons[fr MG αιών, αιώνας <- K, AG

αιωνιο (note αιωνιος is simply the masculine of αιωνιο)= αιώνιο[eónio] το(1)(L) the eternal, ageless thingαληθινά επίκαιρο είναι μονάχα το ~ (Tsatsos) | poem το ποτάμι κυλά …|… ή ξ�*γνοιαστο στο ~ αναρριχι�*ται ενώ γκρεμίζεται (ZOikonomou) | όλα με βοηθούν …| να μαρτυρήσω μ�*σα μου το ~ (Karelli).[substantiv. n of αιώνιος]

New Atheist · 01-20-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

Leaving aside the fact that Tony has engaged in the etymological fallacy (not to mention that he seems not to have checked his claim about the meaning of PROSKAIRA against LSJ or BDAG), could you please show me where the word "prosxero" appears in any ancient Greek text, let alone where it is used with the meaning you claim it bore?

Jeffrey Gibson

It was used in the meaning I claimed in the passage Tony quoted. Other than that, I don't really have many ancient Greek texts with me to give you examples.

I'll search for some if you so wish, though I find it silly.

Edit: I can give you another greek-english dictionary link to check it out. This too gives -impermanent- -temporary- etc, (what a surprise). http://lexicon.pathfinder.gr/?lookup...F6%F1%E1%F3%E7

I can't find a dictionary online for κοινη but if you propose that the word used to have a different meaning back then, by all means provide some evidence for it.

jgibson000 · 01-20-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Atheist

HAHAHAHAHAH. No I did not mean aenaos, which yes is a completely different word. Aenaos is actually an adjective not a noun in any case. Aionas or aeonas, I mean the word αιωνaς I'm just not an expert in what we term as Greeklish. so forgive me if I put an e instead of an i in a word that doesn't exist.

You don't seem to be much of an expert in Greek either. In Classical Greek and in Koine AIWNAS is the masculine accusative plural poetic form of the word AIWN.

Quote:

Αιωνας does not mean century?

Not in Classical or Koine Greek it doesn't, even in its accusative plural form. And it's meaning in Koine and Classical Greek is the issue at hand, not what it now means in Modern Greek.

But you can prove me wrong by providing an ancient Greek test in which AIWN is used with the meaning "century". Do you know of any?

Quote:

Please allow me to ROFLMAO.
Go to the Greek wikipedia site over here and tell me what you think think those links mean: http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%...BD%CE%B5%CF%82

I'll give you a hint, they're a listing of all the centuries, which is what the word αιωνας means after the number.

Or go to this online dictionary over here: http://berlin.cls.yale.edu/picturedi...t=36&ch=0&ph=1

Thanks for the URLs. But please note, they are URLs to dictionaries of Modern not Ancient Greek. And so they are irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Quote:

But you'll tell me that it meant a different thing in the Ancient Greek language, which you have no actual evidence to support this assertion other than it's the only explanation that fits your nonsensical theory.

ahem. From LSJ:

aiôn , ônos, ho, Ion. and Ep. also hê, as in Pi.P.4.186, E.Ph.1484: apocop. acc. aiô,

A. like Poseidô, restored by Ahrens (from AB363) in A.Ch.350: (properly aiWôn, cf. aevum, v. aiei):--period of existence (to telos to periechon ton tês hekastou zôês chronon . . aiôn hekastou keklêtai Arist.Cael.279a25 ):

I. lifetime, life, psuchê te kai aiôn Il.16.453 ; ek d' ai. pephatai Il.19.27 ; mêde toi ai. phthinetô Od.5.160 ; leipei tina Il.5.685 ; ap' aiônos neos ôleo (Zenod. neon) 24.725; teleutan ton aiôna Hdt.1.32 , etc.; aiônos sterein tina A.Pr.862 ; aiôna dioichnein Id.Eu.315 ; sundiatribein Cratin. 1 ; ai. Aiakidan, periphr. for the Aeacidae, S.Aj.645 s. v. l.; apepneusen aiôna E.Fr.801 ; emon kat' aiôna A.Th.219 .

2. age, generation, ai. es triton ib.744; ho mellôn aiôn posterity, D.18.199, cf. Pl.Ax.370c.

3. one's life, destiny, lot, S.Tr.34, E.Andr.1215, Fr.30, etc.

II. long space of time, age, aiôn gignetai 'tis an age, Men.536.5; esp. with Preps., ap' aiônos of old, Hes.Th.609, Ev.Luc.1.70; hoi apo tou ai. Rhômaioi D.C. 63.20 ; di' aiônos perpetually, A.Ch.26, Eu.563; all one's life long, S. El.1024; di' aiônos makrou, apaustou, A.Supp.582,574; ton di' ai. chronon for ever, Id.Ag.554; eis hapanta ton ai. Lycurg.106, Isoc.10.62; eis ton ai. LXX Ge.3.23, al., D.S.21.17, Ev.Jo.8.35, Ps.-Luc. Philopatr.17; eis aiôna aiônos LXX Ps.131(132).14 ; ex aiônos kai heôs aiônos ib.Je.7.7; ep' ai. ib.Ex.15.18; heôs aiônos ib.1 Ki.1.22, al.:-- without a Prep., ton hapanta ai. Arist. Cael.279a22; ton aiôna Lycurg. 62 , Epicur.Ep.1p.8U.; eternity, opp. chronos, Pl.Ti.37d, cf. Metrod. Fr.37, Ph.1.496,619, Plot.3.7.5, etc.; tous huper tou aiônos phobous Epicur.Sent.20 .

2. space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, ho aiôn houtos this present world, opp. ho mellôn, Ev.Matt.13.22, cf. Ep.Rom.12.2; ho nun ai. 1 Ep.Tim.6.17, 2 Ep.Tim.4.10:--hence in pl., the ages, i.e. eternity, Phld.D.3 Fr.84; eis pantas tous ai. LXX To.13.4 ; eis tous ai.ib.Si.45.24, al., Ep.Rom.1.25, etc.; eis tous ai. tôn aiônôn LXX 4 Ma.18.24 , Ep.Phil.4.20, etc.; apo tôn ai., pro tôn ai., Ep.Eph.3.9, 1Cor.2.7; ta telê tôn ai. ib.10.11.

3. Aiôn, ho, personified, Aiôn Chronou pais E.Heracl.900 (lyr.), cf. Corp.Herm.11, etc.; as title of various divine beings, Dam.Pr.151, al.; esp.=Persian Zervan, Suid. s.v. Hêraïskos.

4. Pythag., = 10, Theol.Ar.59.

B. spinal marrow (perh. regarded as seat of life), h.Merc 42, 119, Pi.Fr.111, Hp.Epid.7.122; perh. also Il.19.27.

Curious. Not a single reference to "century"

From BDAG:

aiwv,n
• aiwn,, w/nos, o` (Hom.+; gener. ‘an extended period of time', in var. senses)

1. a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end,

a. of time gone by, the past, earliest times, readily suggesting a venerable or awesome eld oi` a[gioi avpV aivw/noj profh/tai the holy prophets fr. time immemorial (cp. Hes., Theog. 609; Peri. u[youj 34, 4 tou.j avpV aiv. r`h,toraj; Cass. Dio 63, 20 tw/n avpo. tou/ aiv. ~Rwmai,wn; IMagnMai 180, 4; SIG index; Gen 6:4; Tob 4:12; Sir 14:17; 51:8; En 14:1; 99:14; Jos., Bell. 1, 12; Just., D. 11, 1) Lk 1:70; Ac 3:21; make known from of old Ac 15:18; pro. panto.j t. aiv. before time began Jd 25a (for the combination with pa/j cp. Sallust. 20 p. 36, 5 to.n pa,nta aivw/na=through all eternity); pl. pro. tw/n aiv. 1 Cor 2:7 (cp. Ps 54:20 qeo.j o` u`pa,rcwn pro. tw/n aiv. [PGM 4, 3067 avpo. t. i`erw/n aivw,nwn]); evx aiv. since the beginning D 16:4 (Diod. S. 1, 6, 3; 3, 20, 2; 4, 83, 3; 5, 2, 3; Sext. Emp., Math. 9, 62; OGI 669, 61; Philo, Somn. 1, 19; Jos., Bell. 5, 442; Sir 1:4; SibOr fgm. 1, 16 of God mo,noj eivj aivw/na k. evx aivw/noj). W. neg. foll. evk tou/ aivw/noj ouvk hvkou,sqh never has it been heard J 9:32.

b. of time to come which, if it has no end, is also known as eternity (so commonly in Gk. lit. Pla. et al.); eivj to.n aivw/na (since Isocr. 10, 62, also Diod. S. 1, 56, 1 eivj t. aiv.=eivj a[panta t. cro,non; 4, 1, 4; SIG 814, 49 and OGI index VIII; POxy 41, 30=‘Long live the Caesars'; PGM 8, 33; 4, 1051 [eivj aiv.]; LXX; En 12:6; 102:3; PsSol 2:34, 37; ParJer 8:5; JosAs 15:3 eivj to.n aivw/na cro,non 4:10 al. Jos., Ant. 7, 356 [eivj aiv.]) to eternity, eternally, in perpetuity: live J 6:51, 58; B 6:3; remain J 8:35ab; 12:34; 2 Cor 9:9 (Ps. 111:9); 1 Pt 1:23 v.l., 25 (Is 40:8); 1J 2:17; 2J 2; be with someone J 14:16. Be priest Hb 5:6; 6:20; 7:17, 21, 24, 28 (each Ps 109:4). Darkness reserved Jd 13. W. neg.=never, not at all, never again (Ps 124:1; Ezk 27:36 al.) Mt 21:19; Mk 3:29; 11:14; 1 Cor 8:13. e[wj aivw/noj (LXX) 1 Cl 10:4 (Gen 13:15); Hv 2, 3, 3; s 9, 24, 4. In Johannine usage the term is used formulaically without emphasis on eternity (Lackeit [s. 4 below] 32f): never again thirst J 4:14; never see death 8:51f; cp. 11:26; never be lost 10:28; never (= by no means) 13:8. eivj to.n aiv. tou/ aivw/noj (Ps 44:18; 82:18 al.) Hb 1:8 (Ps 44:7). e[wj aivw/noj (LXX; PsSol 18:11) Lk 1:55 v.l. (for eivj to.n aiv.); eivj h`me,ran aivw/noj 2 Pt 3:18.—The pl. is also used (Emped., fgm. 129, 6 aivw/nej=generations; Theocr. 16, 43 makrou.j aivw/naj=long periods of time; Philod. peri. qew/n 3 fgm. 84; Sext. Emp., Phys. 1, 62 eivj aivw/naj diame,nei; SibOr 3, 767; LXX, En; TestAbr B 7 p. 112, 3 [Stone p. 72].—B-D-F �141, 1), esp. in doxologies: eivj tou.j aivw/naj (Ps 60:5; 76:8) Mt 6:13 v.l.; Lk 1:33 (cp. Wsd 3:8); Hb 13:8. eivj pa,ntaj tou.j aiv. (Tob 13:4; Da 3:52b; En 9:4; SibOr 3, 50) Jd 25b. euvloghto.j eivj tou.j aivw/naj to all eternity (cp. Ps 88:53) Ro 1:25; 9:5; 2 Cor 11:31. auvtw/| h` do,xa eivj tou.j aiv. Ro 11:36; w-| ktl. 16:27 (v.l. auvtw/|). to. kra,toj eivj tou.j aiv. 1 Pt 5:11; more fully eivj tou.j aiv. tw/n aivw,nwn (Ps 83:5; GrBar 17:4; PGM 4, 1038; 22b, 15) for evermore in doxologies Ro 16:27 v.l.; Gal 1:5; Phil 4:20; 1 Ti 1:17; 2 Ti 4:18; Hb 13:21; 1 Pt 4:11; 5:11 v.l.; Rv 1:6, 18; 5:13; 7:12; 11:15 al. 1 Cl 20:12; 32:4; 38:4; 43:6; eivj pa,saj ta.j genea.j tou/ aivw/noj tw/n aiv. Eph 3:21 (cp. Tob 1:4; 13:12; En 103:4; 104:5). Of God o` zw/n eivj tou.j aiv. (cp. Tob 13:2; Sir 18:1; Da 6:27 Theod.) Rv 4:9f; 10:6; 15:7; formulaically=eternal 14:11; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5.—kata. pro,qesin tw/n aivw,nwn according to the eternal purpose Eph 3:11. All-inclusive avpo. aivw,nwn kai. eivj t. aivw/naj from (past) eternity to (future) eternity B 18:2 (cp. Ps 40:14 and Ps.-Aristot., De Mundo 7, 401a, 16 evx aivw/noj avte,rmonoj eivj e[teron aivw/na; M. Ant. 9, 28, 1 evx aivw/noj eivj aivw/na; SibOr fgm. 1, 16 of God mo,noj eivj aivw/na k. evx aivw/noj).

2. a segment of time as a particular unit of history, age

a. o` aivw.n ou-toj (hZ<h; ~l'A[h') the present age (nearing its end) (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 13, 15, in ref. to 1 Cor 3:18; s. Bousset, Rel. 243ff; Dalman, Worte 120ff; Schürer II 537f; NMessel, D. Einheitlichkeit d. jüd. Eschatol. 1915, 44-60) contrasted w. the age to come (Philo and Joseph. do not have the two aeons) Mt 12:32. A time of sin and misery Hv 1, 1, 8; s 3:1ff; ending of Mk in the Freer ms. 2; h` me,rimna tou/ aiv. (v.l. + tou,tou) the cares of the present age Mt 13:22; pl. cp. Mk 4:19. plou/toj earthly riches Hv 3, 6, 5. mataiw,mata vain, futile things Hm 9:4; s 5, 3, 6. pragmatei/ai m 10, 1, 4. evpiqumi,a m 11:8; s 6, 2, 3; 7:2; 8, 11, 3. ponhri,a s 6, 1, 4. avpa,tai s 6, 3, 3 v.l. oi` ui`oi. tou/ aiv. tou,tou the children of this age, the people of the world (opp. children of light, enlightened ones) Lk 16:8; 20:34.—The earthly kingdoms basilei/ai tou/ aiv. tou,tou IRo 6:1. suschmati,zesqai tw/| aiv. tou,tw| be conformed to this world Ro 12:2. As well as everything non-Christian, it includes the striving after worldly wisdom: suzhthth.j tou/ aiv. tou,tou searcher after the wisdom of this world 1 Cor 1:20. sofi,a tou/ aiv. tou,tou 2:6. evn tw/| aiv. tou,tw| 3:18 prob. belongs to what precedes=those who consider themselves wise in this age must become fools (in the estimation of this age). The ruler of this age is the devil: o` qeo.j tou/ aiv. tou,tou 2 Cor 4:4 (qeo,j 5). a;rcwn tou/ aiv. tou,tou IEph 17:1; 19:1; IMg 1:3; ITr 4:2; IRo 7:1; IPhld 6:2; his subordinate spirits are the a;rcontej tou/ aiv. tou,tou 1 Cor 2:6, 8 (a;rcwn 1c).—Also o` nu/n aivw,n (Did., Gen. 148, 21): plou,sioi evn tw/| nu/n aiv. 1 Ti 6:17; avgapa/n to.n nu/n aiv. 2 Ti 4:10; Pol 9:2. Cp. Tit 2:12. Or (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 42, 30) o` aiv. o` evnestw,j the present age Gal 1:4 (cp. SIG 797, 9 [37 AD] aivw/noj nu/n evnestw/toj). The end of this period (cp. SibOr 3, 756 me,cri te,rmatoj aivw/noj) sunte,leia $tou/% aiv. Mt 13:39f, 49; 24:3; 28:20 (cp. TestJob 4:6; TestBenj 11:3; JRobinson, Texts and Studies V introd. 86). sunte,leia tw/n aiv. Hb 9:26; on GMary 463, 1 s. kairo,j end.

b. o` aivw.n me,llwn (aB'h; ~l'A[h') the age to come, the Messianic period (on the expr. cp. Demosth. 18, 199; Hippocr., Ep. 10, 6 o` m. aiv.=the future, all future time; Ael. Aristid. 46 p. 310 D.: h` tou/ parelqo,ntoj cro,nou mnei,a k. o` tou/ me,llontoj aivw/noj lo,goj; Jos., Ant. 18, 287; Ar. 15, 3; Orig., C. Cels. 8, 24, 20; Did., Gen. 164, 2) in 2 Cl 6:3, cp. Hs 4:2ff, opposed to the aivw.n ou-toj both in time and quality, cp. Mt 12:32; Eph 1:21; duna,meij me,llontoj aiv. Hb 6:5. Also aiv. evkei/noj: tou/ aiv. evkei,nou tucei/n take part in the age to come Lk 20:35. o` aiv. o` evrco,menoj Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30; Hs 4:2, 8. o` aiv. o` evperco,menoj Hv 4, 3, 5: pl. evn toi/j aivw/sin toi/j evpercome,noij in the ages to come Eph 2:7. As a holy age o` a[gioj aiv. (opp. ou-toj o` ko,smoj; cp. eivj to.n mei,zona aiv. TestJob 47:3) B 10:11 and as a time of perfection aiv. avlu,phtoj an age free from sorrow 2 Cl 19:4 (cp. aiv. … tou/ avparalla,ktou TestJob 33:5), while the present aivw,n is an ‘aeon of pain' (Slav. Enoch 65, 8).—The plurals 1 Cor 10:11 have been explained by some as referring to both ages, i.e. the end-point of the first and beginning of the second; this view urges that the earliest Christians believed that the two ages came together during their own lifetimes: we, upon whom the ends of the ages have come (JWeiss. A Greek would not refer to the beginning as te,loj. The Gordian knot has ou;te te,loj ou;te avrch,: Arrian, Anab. 2, 3, 7). But since ta. te,lh can also mean ‘end' in the singular (Ael. Aristid. 44, 17 K.=17 p. 406 D.: sw,matoj avrcai. k. te,lh=‘beginning and end'; 39 p. 737 D.: ta. te,lh … dra,matoj; Longus 1, 23, 1 ms. h=roj te,lh; Vi. Thu. 2, 2 [=OxfT QOUKUDIDOU BIOS 2] te,lh tou/ pole,mou; Aëtius, Eye Diseases p. 120, 25 Hirschb. after Galen: ta. te,lh t. lo,gou=the close of the section; Philo, Virt. 182) and, on the other hand, the pl. aivw/nej is often purely formal (s. above 1a and b, 2a at end) ta. te,lh tw/n aiv. can perh. be regarded as equal to te,loj aivw,nwn (SibOr 8, 311)=the end of the age(s). Cp. TestLevi 14:1 evpi. ta. te,lh tw/n aivw,nwn.—For the essential equivalence of sing. and pl. cp. Maximus Tyr. 14, 8b ta. th/j kolakei,aj te,lh beside te,loj th/j spoudh/j. Cp. also te,loj 5.

3. the world as a spatial concept, the world (aiv. in sg. and pl. [B-D-F �141, 1]: Hippocr., Ep. 17, 34; Diod. S. 1, 1, 3 God rules a[panta to.n aivw/na; Ael. Aristid. 20, 13 K.=21 p. 434 D.: evk tou/ panto.j aivw/noj; Maximus Tyr. 11, 5e; IAndrosIsis, Cyrene 4 [103 AD] P. p. 129]; Ps 65:7; Ex 15:18 [cp. Philo, Plant. 47; 51]; Wsd 13:9; 14:6; 18:4; aivw/nej oi` krei,ttone Tat. 20:2) ApcPt 4:14. Created by God through the Son Hb 1:2; through God's word 11:3. Hence God is basileu.j tw/n aiv. 1 Ti 1:17; Rv 15:3 (v.l. for evqnw/n); 1 Cl 61:2 (cp. PGM 12, 247 aivw,nwn basileu/; Tob 13:7, 11, cp. AcPh 2 and 11 [Aa II/2, 2, 20 and 6, 9]); path.r tw/n aiv. 35:3 (cp. Just., A I, 41, 2; AcPh 144 [Aa II/2, 84, 9]); qeo.j tw/n aiv. 55:6 (cp. Sir 36:17; o` qeo.j tou/ aiv.; En 1:4; PGM 4, 1163; TSchermann, Griech. Zauber-pap 1909, 23; AcJ 82 [Aa II/1, 191, 24f]). But many of these pass. may belong under 2.

4. the Aeon as a person, the Aeon (Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 268 index under Aion, Taufe 391 index; Epict. 2, 5, 13 ouv ga,r eivmi aivw,n, avllV a;nqrwpoj=I am not a being that lasts forever, but a human being [and therefore I know that whatever is must pass away]; Mesomedes 1, 17=Coll. Alex. p. 197, 17; Simplicius in Epict. p. 81, 15 oi` aivw/nej beside the mh,thr th/j zwh/j and the dhmiourgo,j; En 9:4 ku,rioj t. kuri,wn kai. qeo.j t. qew/n k. basileu.j t. aivw,nwn; PGM 4, 520; 1169; 2198; 2314; 3168; 5, 468; AcPh 132 [Aa II/2, 63, 5]; Kephal. I p. 24, 6; 45, 7) o` aiv. tou/ ko,smou tou,tou Eph 2:2. The secret hidden from the Aeons Col 1:26; Eph 3:9 (Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 235f); IEph 19:2 (Rtzst. 86, 3); cp. 8:1 (Rtzst. 236, 2). Various other meanings have been suggested for these passages.—CLackeit, Aion I, diss. Königsbg. 1916; EBurton, ICC Gal 1921, 426-32; HJunker, Iran. Quellen d. hellenist. Aionvorstellung: Vortr. d. Bibl. Warburg I 1923, 125ff; ENorden, D. Geburt des Kindes 1924; MZepf, D. Gott Aiwn in d. hellenist. Theologie: ARW 25, 1927, 225-44; ANock, HTR 27, 1934, 78-99=Essays I, '72, 377-96; RLöwe, Kosmos u. Aion '35; EOwen, aivw,n and aivw,nioj: JTS 37, '36, 265-83; 390-404; EJenni, Das Wort ‘olam im AT: ZAW 64, '52, 197-248; 65, '53, 1-35; KDeichgräber, RGG I3 193-95; HSasse, RAC I 193-204; MNilsson, Die Rel. in den gr. Zauberpapyri, K. humanist. Vetenskapssamfundets Lund II '47/48, 81f; GJennings, A Survey of aiwn and aiwnioj and their meaning in the NT, '48; GStadtmüller, Aion: Saeculum 2, '51, 315-20 (lit.); EDegani, AIWN da Omero ad Aristotele '61 (s. Classen, Gnomon 34, '62, 366-70; D.'s reply in RivFil 91, '63, 104-10); MTreu, Griech. Ewigkeitswörter, Glotta 43, '65, 1-24; JBarr, Biblical Words for Time2 '69; OCullman, Christus u. die Zeit3 '62.—B. 13. EDNT. DDD s.v. Aion. DELG. M-M. TW. Sv.

And again, not a singe attestation that AIWN was used in Classical or Koine with the meaning "century".

Quote:

I wish I could find an ancient Greek dictionary in the web but apparently can't,

How hard have you tried? LSJ, the pre-eminent ancient Greek Lexicon, is and has been online for some time now.

Quote:

so you'll have to take my word for it.

:rolling: :rolling: Now it's my turn to ROFLMAO.

JG

jgibson000 · 01-20-2007, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Atheist

Here's a final link to a Greek English dictionary, if you wish to look at things yourself. I've saved you the effort:

Once again, this is a link to a Modern Greek dictionary. It is absolutely useless as an authority for what the semantic range of AIWN was in Ancient Greek. Moreover, you seem to be oblivious to the fact that it contains data that contradicts your claim.

JG

jgibson000 · 01-20-2007, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Atheist

I can't find a dictionary online for κοινη but if you propose that the word used to have a different meaning back then, by all means provide some evidence for it.

This assumes that there was such a word as PROSXERO/PROSXERW in ancient Greek. But so far as I can see, there was no such word.

Can you please show me where in the corpus of Ancient Greek literature available to us PROSXERO/PROSXERW occurs or name an Ancient Greek author who uses it?

I've searched the TLG from the 8th century BCE through the second century CE and I can find no instance of it in any piece of extant Greek literature written in/during that period. What have I missed?

JG

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01-20-2007, 03:22 PM	#55
New Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,704	Here's another linky, a Greek etymological dictionary. Well apparently we learn something every day don't we. Αιων actually comes from αιει, αει which means for ever, so the adjective αιωνιος (eternal) is more correct than the noun αιωνας (century). I'll admit I didn't know that one : http://copernikos.tripod.com/etymologiko.htm

01-20-2007, 03:43 PM	#56
New Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,704	Here's a final link to a Greek English dictionary, if you wish to look at things yourself. I've saved you the effort: αιωνας= αιώνας[eónas] ο, gen -ώνα (&L -ώνος)(1)a hundred year period, century (syn L εκατονταετία, εκατονταετηρίδα)προ ενός αιώνος (L), πριν �ναν αιώνα a century ago \| σ' ολόκληρο(ν) αιώνα in a hundred years \| στις αρχ�ς, στο τ�λος του αιώνα \| η επαναστατική ιδεολογία του αιώνα \| στις πρώτες δεκαετίες (δεκαετηρίδες) του αιώνα \| ~ προπαρασκευής, ~ της Διαφωτίσεως, ~ της μηχανής \| η επιστημονική πρόοδος του αιώνα \| το σπουδαιότερο βιβλίο του αιώνος μας (Papatsonis) \| η αξεδίψαστη θρησκευτική λαχτάρα του αιώνα μας (Theotokas) \| στον αιώνα της ατομικής ενεργείας (Melas) \| οδοφράγματα στους ν�ους· και μιλούμε για αιώνα της νεότητας (Palaiologos) \| ο θεατής του κινηματογράφου ενός μελλοντικού αιώνα (Theotokas) \| σε περασμ�νους αιώνας (Gryparis) \| μουσουργοί του περασμ�νου αιώνα \| στα μ�σα του 7ου (εβδόμου) αιώνος (Christou) \| τοιχογραφίες του 10ου και 11ου αιώνα (Papatsonis) \| πύργος από τον 16ο αιώνα (Xenop) \| poem αλλ' η ζωή σου εβάσταξε \| χρόνια πολλά κ' αιώνες (Markoras).(2)(long) period of time, age, era (syn εποχή)μ�σοι αιώνες Middle Ages (syn μεσαιωνική εποχή) \| στον αιώνα much time \| �ναν αιώνα a long time.�καμες να 'ρθης �ναν αιώνα it took you forever to come; �χω να σε ιδώ �ναν αιώνα it is an age since I saw you last \| ο χρυσός ~ (L ο χρυσούς αιών) the Golden Age \| ο ~ του �ερικλ�ους (the 5th c. BC; syn of preced) \| προ αιώνων a very long time ago \| από αιώνες (L αιώνων) from time immemorial \| οσμίζοντας το λιβάνι και το κερί που μοσκοβολά από αιώνες κολλημ�νο απάνου στο θόλο (Kontoglou) \| αυτήν την από αιώνων συνεχή παρουσία (του χορού) … μελετάει η λαογραφία (Loukatos) \| ούτε θα μαντ�ψουν στον αιώνα την ύπαρξή μου (Terzakis) nor will they ever guess my existence \| θ' απομείνη στον ~ αθάνατος (Prevelakis) \| poem για να ευωδάη το �ργο μου στον ~ (Sikel) \| θα το κάνη ίσαμε τη συντ�λεια των αιώνων (Panagiotop) \| (η ανθρωπότης) τρικλίζει χωρίς λογική και χωρίς αρχή αιώνες κ' αιώνες (Palam) \| (αυτή η κορύφωση) �μεινε αιώνες κ' ~ λησμονημ�νη (Panagiotop).(a)phr στον αιώνα τον άπαντα (εις τον αιώνα τον άπαντα L) forever, ineternum (syn πάντοτε), w. neg neverο κόσμος … ας μην αλλάξη στον αιώνα τον άπαντα (Kazantz) \| κι ούτε πρόκειται να το δη στον αιώνα τον άπαντα (Melas) \| poem δεν θα σ' τα επιστρ�ψω στον αιώνα τον άπαντα (Vrettakos).(b)phr στους αιώνες (L αιώνας) των αιώνων or αιώνες αιώνων for ever and ever�να σύμβολο της ελληνικής παραδόσεως … �χει συντηρηθεί αιώνες αιώνων (Sfyroeras) \| του Mπάυρον η Mούσα … κρατι�ται και τότε και τώρα και στους αιώνες των αιώνων χωρίς πιστούς (Palam) \| poem ζωγράφισες τον κόσμο που διαβαίνει ίδιος πάντα στων αιώνων τους αιώνας (id.) \|… να μη σε βρίσκη ο άνεμος \| που βασανίζει τους γυμνούς στους αιώνες των αιώνων (Vrettakos).(3)sci t. scientific period of time, ageγεωλογικοί αιώνες geologic eras.(4)philos αιώνες aeons[fr MG αιών, αιώνας <- K, AG αιωνιο (note αιωνιος is simply the masculine of αιωνιο)= αιώνιο[eónio] το(1)(L) the eternal, ageless thingαληθινά επίκαιρο είναι μονάχα το ~ (Tsatsos) \| poem το ποτάμι κυλά …\|… ή ξ�γνοιαστο στο ~ αναρριχι�ται ενώ γκρεμίζεται (ZOikonomou) \| όλα με βοηθούν …\| να μαρτυρήσω μ�σα μου το ~ (Karelli).[substantiv. n of αιώνιος]

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