FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-09-2013, 10:06 PM   #11
MrMacSon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South Pacific
Posts: 559
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by outhouse View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMacSon View Post
"Early Roman period

" In 55BC, 8 years after conquered by the Romans, the city [Sepporis/Tzippori] was declared as the capital of the Galilee. In 47BC Herod the Great conquered the city and made it his Galilean capital. After Herod's death in 4BC the Jewish citizens seized the city but the Romans, under Verus, re-conquered the city, burnt it and sold the Jewish rebels to slavery. Herod's son, Herod Antipas, rebuilt and fortified the city." [rebuilt ~3/4BC to 3/4AD/CE presumably without any Jews]
http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/Sepphoris.html
Anything more modern for a source?
Err, it is a current [modern] reference verified by similar information from the wikipedia link-page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outhouse View Post
At the time of Jesus this is said to be a Jewish city.

Historical References:
(a) Mishna - Babylonian Talmud - Arachin page 32, 1

This text, in the 5th C AD Jewish book, tells us the Sepphoris/Zippori was a walled city at the times of the Israelite conquest:
Quote:
"...Houses surrounded by walls from the times of Joshua Ben Nun such as the old city of Zippori..."
I provided references to what happened BC to 4th C. What has the 5th C got to do with the supposedly time of Jesus??


Quote:
Originally Posted by outhouse View Post
(b) Josephus Flavius

The historian Josephus Flavius, the commander of the Jewish revolt, writes about the city in many references.
So what?
MrMacSon is offline  
Old 06-09-2013, 10:12 PM   #12
outhouse
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Auburn ca
Posts: 4,269
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMacSon View Post
[rebuilt ~3/4BC to 3/4AD/CE presumably without any Jews]


Could you help me out with a source for that part?
outhouse is offline  
Old 06-09-2013, 10:24 PM   #13
MrMacSon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South Pacific
Posts: 559
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by outhouse View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMacSon View Post
[rebuilt ~3/4BC to 3/4AD/CE presumably without any Jews]
Could you help me out with a source for that part?
The references I supplied.
Quote:
In 47BC Herod the Great conquered the city and made it his Galilean capital. After Herod's death in 4BC the Jewish citizens seized the city but the Romans, under Verus, re-conquered the city, burnt it and sold the Jewish rebels to slavery. Herod's son, Herod Antipas, rebuilt and fortified the city." [rebuilt ~3/4BC to 3/4AD/CE presumably without any Jews; or, without many Jews]
http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/Sepphoris.html
Quote:
After Herod's death in 4 BCE, the Jewish inhabitants of Tzippori rebelled against Roman rule and the Roman army moved in under the command of the Roman Governor in Syria, Varus. Completely destroying the city, the Roman army sold many of its [Jewish] inhabitants into slavery.a Herod's son, Herod Antipas was made Tetrarch, or governor, in 1 CE, and proclaimed the city's new name to be Autocratis, or the "Ornament of the Galilee.b"

a "Zippori". The Department for Zionist Education, The Jewish Agency for Israel. Retrieved 2006-07-03.

b "Diocaesarea". York University, Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzippori#Early_history
MrMacSon is offline  
Old 06-09-2013, 10:52 PM   #14
TedM
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
Default

Hi Abe,

One group of early Christians was called the "Nazarenes". This is well attested, and not only in Acts 24:5. See also http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...1393-nazarenes

I have long thought that the name "Nazarenes" came from "Nazareth".

However, I think there may well be something to the idea that the name may have come from the term Nazirite.

From Numbers 6 we see that Nazirites do the following:

1. They make a vow to dedicate themselves to the Lord for some time called a 'separation'
2. Abstain from strong drink
3. The do not cut their hair
4. Stay away from dead people
5. When the days of dedication end, he makes offerings for sin (through the priest) and shaves his head

When Paul visits Jerusalem in Acts 21, he meets with the James, their leader, and the 'elders'. They tell Paul that there are thousands of Jewish "believers" who don't like him because they are "zealous for the Law", and they heard that Paul isn't. They tell Paul:

Quote:
We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
Note that these four men appeared to be part of James' Christian group, were taking a vow and (it appears) had not cut their hair.

Note too the following quote from wiki:

Quote:
In describing James' ascetic lifestyle, De Viris Illustribus quotes Hegesippus's account of James from the fifth book of Hegesippus's lost Commentaries:
Quote:
After the apostles, James the brother of the Lord surnamed the Just was made head of the Church at Jerusalem. Many indeed are called James. This one was holy from his mother's womb. He drank neither wine nor strong drink, ate no flesh, never shaved or anointed himself with ointment or bathed. He alone had the privilege of entering the Holy of Holies, since indeed he did not use woolen vestments but linen and went alone into the temple and prayed in behalf of the people, insomuch that his knees were reputed to have acquired the hardness of camels' knees
Then we have in Acts 24:5, speaking of Paul to the governor:

Quote:
For we have found this man a real pest and a fellow who stirs up dissension among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.
So, we have the early Christians being called Nazarenes, and having some things in common with those who took the Nazirite vows.



One might ask: Why did the term "Nazarenes" die out? It appears to be a term used for Jewish Christians, and perhaps not for Gentile Christians. (Note that Acts says the name Christians first was used in Antioch, a Gentile city with lots of Hellenistic Jews).

It also appears from later writings that "Nazarenes" were seen as heretical because they adhered to the Jewish Law too much. See http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...1393-nazarenes
The question is: were they close followers of the Law because they were Jewish, or because they were Nazirites? And why would their first leader, who isn't even introduced in Acts, have been such a strict follower of the law if the leader whom he followed had been drastically different? If Jesus were a JTB follower, as I believe was the case, then perhaps Jesus practiced dedication to God, abstinence from drink, let his hair grow, no bathing in the wilderness, fasting, etc..It might explain James and the Nazarene's more easily: JTB -> Jesus -> James.

In 5 other places in Acts Jesus is referred to as "the Nazarene". In only 2 places it says "of Nazareth".

Which is more likely?:

1. Jesus and his original followers were called "Nazarenes" because they took vows of or like those of the Nazirites and despite Gentile opposition some records remain as support.

2. Jesus and his original followers were called "Nazarenes" because he came from an obscure town named Nazareth, despite the expectation of some that the Messiah would come from Bethlehem.
TedM is offline  
Old 06-09-2013, 11:22 PM   #15
spin
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
Hi Abe,

One group of early Christians was called the "Nazarenes". This is well attested, and not only in Acts 24:5. See also http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...1393-nazarenes

I have long thought that the name "Nazarenes" came from "Nazareth".
Gee, that's novel!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
However, I think there may well be something to the idea that the name may have come from the term Nazirite.

From Numbers 6 we see that Nazirites do the following:

1. They make a vow to dedicate themselves to the Lord for some time called a 'separation'
2. Abstain from strong drink
3. The do not cut their hair
4. Stay away from dead people
5. When the days of dedication end, he makes offerings for sin (through the priest) and shaves his head
This is the blunder that so many christian scholars fall into. Naziritism has nothing necessarily to do with the vow. One can be a Nazirite without the vow. In fact, Samson was a life-long Nazirite without having made a vow, his Naziritism assured before his birth. He didn't abstain from carousing or womanizing. Yet, he was to save the Israelites, just as Jesus was to save his people.

The vow only confuses the issue without being shown to be relevant.
spin is offline  
Old 06-09-2013, 11:31 PM   #16
TedM
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
The vow only confuses the issue without being shown to be relevant.
It is part of being a Nazirite, even if not required. See Numbers 6:2.

Quote:
‘When a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to dedicate himself to the Lord,
Even if it isn't required, it clearly is worth mentioning and considering when making comparisons, spin.
TedM is offline  
Old 06-09-2013, 11:37 PM   #17
spin
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
The vow only confuses the issue without being shown to be relevant.
It is part of being a Nazirite, even if not required. See Numbers 6:2.
As I have pointed out in two posts you don't have the whole story. In fact the only clear examples we have of Nazirites in the bible are Samson and Samuel... well, the biblical indication of Samuel's Naziritism has been suppressed and only appears in the DSS copies. Nevertheless, they are are only two known early Nazirites and there is nothing about a vow regarding them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
Quote:
‘When a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to dedicate himself to the Lord,
Even if it isn't required, it clearly is worth mentioning and considering when making comparisons, spin.
You seem to be oblivious to the fact that all the nutters who write on this subject are one-eyed fools who push this vow nonsense, while ignoring the fact that Samson didn't make a vow and was not particularly vowish in behavior, as I have already pointed out. But still, like Jesus, he did save his people, didn't he? And he was referred to as "holy one of god" (parallel with Nazeiraios = Nazirite) in LXX Jdg 13:7 as Jesus was thus referred to by the demons in Mk 1:24.
spin is offline  
Old 06-09-2013, 11:47 PM   #18
TedM
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
The vow only confuses the issue without being shown to be relevant.
It is part of being a Nazirite, even if not required. See Numbers 6:2.
As I have pointed out in two posts you don't have the whole story. In fact the only clear examples we have of Nazirites in the bible are Samson and Samuel... well, the biblical indication of Samuel's Naziritism has been suppressed and only appears in the DSS copies. Nevertheless, they are are only two known early Nazirites and there is nothing about a vow regarding them.
Numbers 6 wasn't suppressed, was it? Then why are you making an issue of it?



Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
Quote:
‘When a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to dedicate himself to the Lord,
Even if it isn't required, it clearly is worth mentioning and considering when making comparisons, spin.
You seem to be oblivious to the fact that all the nutters who write on this subject are one-eyed fools who push this vow nonsense, while ignoring the fact that Samson didn't make a vow and was not particularly vowish in behavior. as I have already pointed out. But still, like Jesus, he did save his people, didn't he? And he was referred to as "holy one of god" (parallel with Nazeiraios = Nazirite) in LXX Jdg 13:7 as Jesus was thus referred to by the demons in Mk 1:24.
Your added evidence is noted. The 'vow' parallel stands however, even if it wasn't 'required' of Samson. It is in Numbers 6. Do you think the Jews who wanted to become - if even for a short time - a Nazirite would take their cues from Samson or from the Torah? I"m going with the Torah. It's kind of common sense too, for short term dedications. Good night.
TedM is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 12:25 AM   #19
spin
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
The vow only confuses the issue without being shown to be relevant.
It is part of being a Nazirite, even if not required. See Numbers 6:2.
As I have pointed out in two posts you don't have the whole story. In fact the only clear examples we have of Nazirites in the bible are Samson and Samuel... well, the biblical indication of Samuel's Naziritism has been suppressed and only appears in the DSS copies. Nevertheless, they are are only two known early Nazirites and there is nothing about a vow regarding them.
Numbers 6 wasn't suppressed, was it? Then why are you making an issue of it?
Because you are not listening to what was said to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
Quote:
‘When a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to dedicate himself to the Lord,
Even if it isn't required, it clearly is worth mentioning and considering when making comparisons, spin.
You seem to be oblivious to the fact that all the nutters who write on this subject are one-eyed fools who push this vow nonsense, while ignoring the fact that Samson didn't make a vow and was not particularly vowish in behavior. as I have already pointed out. But still, like Jesus, he did save his people, didn't he? And he was referred to as "holy one of god" (parallel with Nazeiraios = Nazirite) in LXX Jdg 13:7 as Jesus was thus referred to by the demons in Mk 1:24.
Your added evidence is noted. The 'vow' parallel stands however, even if it wasn't 'required' of Samson.
What might the vow have to do with Jesus? You don't need to answer the question. It's rhetorical. The implied answer is nothing at all, just as it has nothing to do with the only Nazirite in the Hebrew bible beside Samuel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
It is in Numbers 6. Do you think the Jews who wanted to become - if even for a short time - a Nazirite would take their cues from Samson or from the Torah? I"m going with the Torah. It's kind of common sense too, for short term dedications. Good night.
Fuck common sense. Idiots deal with things that require specialist knowledge and fuck up because they depend on common sense. :banghead:

The story of Samson deals with a non-vow making, life-long Nazirite who saves his people. The connection with Jesus is obvious. That Jesus is named the "holy one of god", just as Samson is in the Alexandrian LXX should also be a help for you to forget the nonsense about the vow. Samson, as a model for Jesus, didn't make a vow. A vow is irrelevant for someone who is a life-long Nazirite. Still Mt draws on the Samson story twice in the early part of the gospel, 1:22 and 2:23. The connection with Samson is strong, yet the fact that he didn't make a vow is not significant to those scholars I have already alluded to, those scholars who stop making sense because they ignore the evidence and crap on how Jesus can't be a Nazarite because he doesn't show signs of having fulfilled a vow. Yeah, well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a PhD think.
spin is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 07:25 AM   #20
TedM
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
The story of Samson deals with a non-vow making, life-long Nazirite who saves his people. The connection with Jesus is obvious. That Jesus is named the "holy one of god", just as Samson is in the Alexandrian LXX should also be a help for you to forget the nonsense about the vow. Samson, as a model for Jesus, didn't make a vow. A vow is irrelevant for someone who is a life-long Nazirite.
Again, I thank you for the additional info. My original post was comparing Nazarenes who DID make a vow for a temporary dedication. That's why I think it IS relevant: it would be foolish to completely ignore the comparison with Number 6. As you point out, it would be equally foolish to REQUIRE that the life-long Nazirites make a vow to do x,y,z. Got it. I'm not sure what vow you have in mind though..Samson didn't cut his hair, for example. A life-long Nazarite would seem to be required to forego at least SOMETHING.

Quote:
Still Mt draws on the Samson story twice in the early part of the gospel, 1:22 and 2:23. The connection with Samson is strong, yet the fact that he didn't make a vow is not significant to those scholars I have already alluded to, those scholars who stop making sense because they ignore the evidence and crap on how Jesus can't be a Nazarite because he doesn't show signs of having fulfilled a vow. Yeah, well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a PhD think.
Ok. Thanks again. More stuff for Abe to consider. I personally do not see a strong connection as it currently reads, although I don't discount the possibility of one having been there originally, with only clues remaining.

Quote:
Judges 13:4 Now therefore, be careful not to drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing. 5 For behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and no razor shall come upon his head, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb; and he shall begin to deliver Israel from the hands of the Philistines.
Quote:
Matthew 1:21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” 22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.” ..2:23 and came and lived in a city called Nazareth. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: “He shall be called a Nazarene.”
TedM is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:24 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.