-Jay-

I'm very sorry that the last straw had to be something like this. I share ck1's hope that he's doing well.

regards,

NinJay

-Jay-

notta, are you male or female (sorry for the question, but it's not obvious from your post or profile, or else I haven't had enough coffee yet this morning.). The reason I ask is that many of the inerrantist/fundamentalist folks I know subscribe to the position that women should basically keep quiet and not ask questions in church. That would, I assume, extend to directing questions to the minister.

Please allow me to scratch at this a little. Had you previously been advised/warned not to read books about the Bible, or at the very least only read books about the Bible that came from the local Christian bookstore? How did you select what you would read?

I was about 8 before I realized that everyone wasn't Catholic. It was kind of a shock to me. It didn't occur to me at the time that there might be different Bible versions, too.

As I stated a few posts back, I'm a liberal Catholic (and that's a much more complicated philosophical position than the words imply...). My parish priest (and good friend) takes a fairly liberal approach to his ministry as well. He's been known on occasion to state "this book wasn't written by the person who's name is on it", or "the writer of Luke probably never even saw Jesus, and was working from oral traditions and previous writings". He gets a lot of puzzled looks from the congregation sometimes...

Back to the point, though, many folks are completely impervious to the notion that the traditional writers weren't the actual writers. (I've seen some Christian high-school level textbooks that go so far as to make the direct claim that Satan is the proximate cause of any evidence against traditional authorship...) I'm curious about how you personally came to the conclusion that what you were discovering was more truthful than what you'd believed previously.

I would expect there were some serious trouble spots as you broke away, as friends and family who remained of the faith tried to pull you back in. What helped you through that?

I understand these are rather personal questions. Feel free to answer or not.

I appreciate the candor of everyone who is contributing to this thread.

regards,

NinJay

notta_skeptic

He's recovered - but it took years of therapy and medication. It was a teenager situation. But having my CHURCH members and my PASTOR tell me that my son's death would be "god's will" was outrageous.

Right before my son's problem, I had a friend who lost her 15-year-old son the day after his 15th birthday to leukemia. They were extremely devout Catholics. At the funeral for this poor boy, the priest said that "God numbered his days" from the time he was conceived, and only god knew why he had to go to heaven, but it was god's will that this happened. His mother was so upset that her priest said her son's death was ordained she stopped going to church. That was 8 years ago, and I don't think she's been back since.

notta_skeptic

Female, but I never ascribed to that "women should keep silent" crap.

I never even knew such books existed. I, who was an omnivorous reader, didn't even know that people wrote books with details about the bible. I had neither heard of their existence, nor knew anyone else who even knew of them. I selected them randomly when I visited the Christian bookstore (which I had never visited before, needing only the bible to sustain my faith).

I was trained as a microbiologist - and believed in evidence. I just hadn't put that mindset towards the issue of the authorship of the bible. I read books by Isaac Asimov, Bill Moyer, and several other well-known, well-respected intellectual people. They provided significant evidence that the bible wasn't written directly by people acting as god's hand. And that the first 4 books of the Gospels weren't actually written on the spot as Jesus walked around Israel.

Nothing and no one helped me. It was physically painful to part with what was such a huge part of my life. It was, and remains to this day, scary to think there is nothing more than the life we have on this earth. It was frightening to think I would just die - and that would be the end. I tell people I'm an apologetic atheist - I'm really, really sorry I became one. But, like virginity, blind, unreasoning faith can't be regained simply because one wants it. I can't unknow what I now know, and knowing what I do has shown me that what I once knew was false. But it was a happy, warm, all-embracing falseness that made me think that god was holding me close, no matter what happened in my life, and there was a good reason for everything. It's terribly similar to a little child finding out that mommy and daddy are Santa Claus, and he never really read all those letters.

My extended family is not at all supportive. Both my parents died this winter, and I was continually asked if I was going to attend their funerals in the church where I was baptized, got married, and attended with my parents when I visited for over 30 years. I didn't even imagine not attending their funerals just because I didn't believe in heaven.

However, once I finally found the courage to tell my own children (who were teens and older) that I was an atheist (I had had them all baptized, confirmed in the church, took them to church with me weekly all their lives, and prayed with them nearly every night), they ALL, separately and unknown to each other, told me they were atheists, had been atheists for years, and had been afraid to tell me. Only my husband remains a Christian, and he prays for me all the time. I don't object to that at all - if it makes him feel better, more power to him. I'll even go to church with him, but he says it's rather hypocritical of me to go to church if I don't believe.

-Jay-

Good.

I find the italicized statement intriguing. In my limited experience (OK, one visit) to a local Christian bookstore, I saw nothing but the usual shelves of apologia, apocalyptic fiction, and Chicken Soup for the <fill in your demographic> type books. In a local Catholic bookstore (and I acknowledge making a distinction here that I wish I didn't have to make), I saw more Biblical criticism and less outright apologetic, but it was still an odd mix - typically the Catholic authors, such as R.E. Brown (who I greatly admire, BTW), and some Jewish writers, with an almost random mix thrown in. In any event, I'm surprised that you were able to find books critical of the Bible in a Christian bookstore.

Another very intriguing statement. I'm an engineer, and work with a lot of engineers (engineers in the scientist sense). I know many very bright people who have managed to construct this odd logic-proof box around their religions beliefs. One of the things I have a very difficult time understanding is how someone does that. I realize that in many cases, the mindset is a product of a lifetime of indoctrination and (in my opinion) fearmongering, but I'm unable to imagine myself with that worldview.

I commend your strength for getting through it.

I know the feeling. I'm wrestling very hard with a related issue, which is largely my motivation for this thread.

Thank you for sharing.

regards,

NinJay

notta_skeptic

I read "Asimov's Guide to the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk)" - a 2 volume set that "goes through the books of the Bible in order, explaining the historical and geographical setting of each one and the political influences that affected it, as well as biographical information about the main characters. Asimov treats the secular aspects of the Bible, free of theological commentary. It includes both biblical verse and subject indexes."

I think it might have been included in the bookstore by mistake - but there were a lot of books about religions in there, not necessarily all about Christianity. I can't remember the other book (it might not have been written by Bill Moyers) but it described the world's major religions and their history.

-Jay-

Thanks. That looks interesting. I've added it to my Amazon wish list. I wouldn't have expected to see a Biblical commentary by Asimov...

regards,

NinJay

notta_skeptic

That guy was an incredibly prolific writer. I knew he was an outstanding scientist and writer, so when I saw a book on the bible by him I wanted to read it immediately. It was a HUGE undertaking (a very long, well-researched book), and I'm much better for it. It never crossed my mind that Asimov would write a book on the history of the bible that was fiction - and since I found it in the "bible history" section of the bookstore, I never looked at it as possibly false. It was like I had opened a door into a whole new realm of existence when I finished that book.

Toto

Yes, I will spit this off.

eta: Here's your posts in GRD

Steviepinhead

Like many others, I've found this a trenchant and fascinating thread.

Thanks to ninjay, notta skeptic, and martian astronomer for the personal detail. Though, again, several other posts deserve commendation, #67 from martian astronomer was the first of a particularly compelling set.

Thanks all!