Toto

The more I read, the less I know. The gospel Jesus is a construct. He operates on something resembling the earth, but he's not fully fleshed out. He walks on water, disappears in crowds. He eats, he sleeps, but then so did the Greek gods.

I think there's something in the gospels for every faction of early Christianity.

No Robots

Oh, other and better opportunities will arise to map the ever-shifting constellation of offhand commentary around here.

I guess my concern was the suggestion that the Gospels do not depict Christ eating as a normal human being, just as some ancient commentators maintained that he had perfect digestion, and thus never took a dump. The ultra-orthodox and the mythicists seem to share an aversion to normal bodily activity being associated with Christ.

Ben C Smith

I hear you, and sympathize.

In the gospels he operates on earth, not something resembling the earth. I do not think the evangelists knew about holodecks.

The walking on water I take to be a miracle, not a reflection of the bodily nature of Jesus; after all, Matthew has Peter walk on water (for a bit), too. Jesus has the power to work such miracles in the gospels; but we already knew that.

The disappearing into crowds I admit I am undecided on. Are these instances of slipping by his enemies supposed to be just clever maneuvering? Are they miracles? Are they docetism at work?

But what do you make of Apollonius of Tyana, who, when a disciple objected to his being clapped in irons like a common criminal, simply pulled his leg from its bonds to show him he was not really being held captive? (Robert Price somewhere calls this docetism, too.) You would have to say that Apollonius is a construct (in his biography by Philostratus, at least), too, would you not?

Ben.

fatpie42

I'd also like to note at this point that during this period Constantine's mother was busy doing some forgery of her own. Helena manages to discover the site of Jesus' crucifixion (which is conveniently the site of a temple to Zeus, which she promptly demolishes) and the true cross (the nails of which she melts down into the metal of the armour for her son and his horse).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_...ic_discoveries

Ben C Smith

Well, you know you want your armor to be hard as nails.

Ben.

spin

Do you take his reported conversation with the devil to be a miracle? What about the voice from heaven proclaiming "you are my son, the beloved, with whom I am well pleased"? Is it a miracle that we have an account of Jesus's prayers in the garden of Gethsemane? Perhaps Jesus walked around with a stenographer. That'd be a miracle as well. Do you think that someone was around to record the interview between Judas and the priests for the sell-out? Do you think it was a miraculous coincidence that his name was Judas? Which makes me wonder do you find the straight-out anti-semitism of the gospels reflective of an era when early christianity was still in some sort of league with Jews? Do you think it's kosher that Jesus is supposed to have had the magic twelve disciples? It couldn't have been eight or eleven could it? What about Jesus's misuse of the term "the son of man" in the face of the common Jewish usage of the era?

I do find it hard that you are arguing that the gospel of Mark was of a biographical genre, when the thought is laughable.

Yep, traditions are bitches for their obfuscation of the boundaries of reality, aren't they? Apollonius needed a Lucian (someone with a little historiographical backbone), didn't he?


spin

No Robots

Some of the earliest Christians, notably John, "had become", in Constantin Brunner's words, "such fervent Christians in their enthusiasm for the new knowledge that they had to demonstrate a commensurate hatred for the other Jews and their Judaism." (Brunner, Our Christ, p. 441).

andrewcriddle

There is doubt as to how far this refers to the Helena of history as distinct from the Helena of later legend. See helena

Andrew Criddle

Ben C Smith

Yes, they certainly are.

Maybe he did, but instead he got Philostratus, his biographer. Do you buy the miracles that Philostratus ascribes to Apollonius?

Ben.

Ben C Smith

I find it hard to follow you here, because your first paragraph about miracles and implausibilities in Mark does not seem to have anything to do with your second paragraph about the biographical genre of Mark.

Ben.