Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Horatio Parker · 01-01-2013, 02:25 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2370656.html

The Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) announced the discovery of a temple and cache of sacred vessels dating back to the First Temple period, providing a unique archaeological glimpse into public religion in the early monarchy before the reforms of Hezekiah and Josiah.* [2] The 2,750-year-old ritual center was discovered at Tel Motza on the western outskirts of Jerusalem. The IAA press release quoted excavation directors Anna Eirikh, Dr. Hamoudi Khalaily and Shua Kisilevitz on the importance of the discovery. “The ritual building at Tel Motza is an unusual and striking find, in light of the fact that there are hardly any remains of ritual buildings of the period in Judea at the time of the First Temple. The uniqueness of the structure is even more remarkable because of the vicinity of the site’s proximity to the capital city of Jerusalem, which acted as the Kingdom’s main sacred center at the time.”
[3]
Discoveries at the First Temple period site of Tel Motza include anthropomorphic (as well as zoomorphic) figurines.

Excavations at Tel Motza, carried out before construction on Israel’s Highway 1 in the area, have exposed a public building, storehouses and silos. The ritual structure, according to the excavation directors, dates to “the early days of the monarchic period (Iron Age IIA). The walls of the structure are massive, and it includes a wide, east-facing entrance, conforming to the tradition of temple construction in the ancient Near East: the rays of the sun rising in the east would have illuminated the object placed inside the temple first, symbolizing the divine presence within. A square structure which was probably an altar was exposed in the temple courtyard, and the cache of sacred vessels was found near the structure.” Because Hezekiah and Josiah centralized Judean religion in Jerusalem in the 8th-7th centuries B.C.E., the discoveries at Tel Motza stand out as some of the only examples of non-domestic cult uncovered from the First Temple period.

Notes

* [5] For more on the First Temple period reforms, read P. Kyle McCarter, Jr.’s “The Religious Reforms of Hezekiah and Josiah [6]” in Aspects of Monotheism [7]. (The full text of the book Aspects of Monotheism [7] is online for free for BAS Library members here).

outhouse · 01-01-2013, 02:34 PM

A few days back on MSN they had some great photos of these finds, pretty cool.

Horatio Parker · 01-01-2013, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

A few days back on MSN they had some great photos of these finds, pretty cool.

There a couple of photos at the link. I agree; very cool.

Diogenes the Cynic · 01-01-2013, 02:50 PM

A lot of misinformation and meretricious nonsense in that article. The phrase "First Temple era" is archaeologically meaningless since no evidence has ever been found that a First Temple ever existed, much less dated to a defined historical "era." The article claims that 750 BCE is the "era of David and Solomon," which not only baselessly presumes such characters to have been historical (completely normal for the American news media), but doesn't even get the Biblical dating right.

It's an interesting find that might be able to tell us something about pre-exilic practices (and it doesn't look particularly Yahwist), but it doesn't have anything t do with David or the First Temple.

I hate that the media is always so naive in this area. All normal journalistic caution goes out the window when it comes to Bible stories.

Sheshbazzar · 01-01-2013, 03:20 PM

I see the artifacts, and have no reason to doubt their origin or age, but fail to see how they are any evidence of a King David or a 'King David Era'.

I mean if we dig up a medieval site and find a sword, is that 'evidence' that there must have been a real King Arthur and Camelot?

Minimalist · 01-01-2013, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

It's an interesting find that might be able to tell us something about pre-exilic practices (and it doesn't look particularly Yahwist), but it doesn't have anything t do with David or the First Temple.

I hate that the media is always so naive in this area. All normal journalistic caution goes out the window when it comes to Bible stories.

The time frame given places the site around 738 BCE which is shortly before Judah threw in with the Assyrians who later overran "Israel," Aram-Damascus and Philistia. The fact that the site is so close to the city of Jerusalem suggests that there was no central temple cult operating in the city at that time. We have no evidence at all that "Judaism" in any recognizable form as we know it existed prior to the Persian period and this find suggests that "non-biblical" cultic practices were taking place within site of the town.

(Of course, as you say, that is anathema to the modern day fanatics running Israel.)

outhouse · 01-01-2013, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

A lot of misinformation and meretricious nonsense in that article. The phrase "First Temple era" is archaeologically meaningless since no evidence has ever been found that a First Temple ever existed, much less dated to a defined historical "era." The article claims that 750 BCE is the "era of David and Solomon," which not only baselessly presumes such characters to have been historical (completely normal for the American news media), but doesn't even get the Biblical dating right.

It's an interesting find that might be able to tell us something about pre-exilic practices (and it doesn't look particularly Yahwist), but it doesn't have anything t do with David or the First Temple.

I hate that the media is always so naive in this area. All normal journalistic caution goes out the window when it comes to Bible stories.

I was laughing about it when I was reading it. IAA has made simular foolish statements in the past.

I sure hope its not the archeologist involved. I searched a little but couldnt find any info is she was a maximalist.

Toto · 01-01-2013, 05:03 PM

Here's another article that quotes the archaeologists:

How idolatry continued in the Kingdom of Judah:Israeli dig uncovers temple and icons dating back to Old Testament era

This article carefully refers to the "House of David" but still assumes a first Temple -

Quote:

Anna Eirikh, one of the directors, told AFP that the discoveries were rare evidence of religious practice outside Jerusalem during the Judaean period.

'What we can say for sure is the figurines served for religious purposes, and that Tel Motza was a Judaean kingdom,' she said.

The findings date to the 9-10th century BC, when the First Temple would have already been built in its Jerusalem location.

The Jews of that era seemed to have kept some of the prevalent pre-Judaism practices alongside the mainstream worship in the Jerusalem temple, she said.

...

outhouse · 01-01-2013, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Here's another article that quotes the archaeologists:

How idolatry continued in the Kingdom of Judah:Israeli dig uncovers temple and icons dating back to Old Testament era

This article carefully refers to the "House of David" but still assumes a first Temple -

Quote:

Anna Eirikh, one of the directors, told AFP that the discoveries were rare evidence of religious practice outside Jerusalem during the Judaean period.

'What we can say for sure is the figurines served for religious purposes, and that Tel Motza was a Judaean kingdom,' she said.

The findings date to the 9-10th century BC, when the First Temple would have already been built in its Jerusalem location.

The Jews of that era seemed to have kept some of the prevalent pre-Judaism practices alongside the mainstream worship in the Jerusalem temple, she said.

...

I wonder what is behind the confusion in dating. Ive seen 750 BC and now she is claiming 9-10th century BC

Sheshbazzar · 01-01-2013, 07:10 PM

The articles pander to public ignorance. There were no such things as 'Jew's' or a 'Jewish' religion of Judaism, or a 'Kingdom of Judah' at that early date.
The Judean peoples were polytheistic and very independent minded. The power, authority, and political control of the people that the Bible ascribes to the YHWH priesthood, and its 'kings' is an invented religious fiction, likely along with any actual 'First Temple' that was dedicated to YHWH.

01-01-2013, 02:25 PM	#1
Horatio Parker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Bronx, NY Posts: 945	Tel Motza Discovery: Temple And Ritual Vessels Of Cult From King David Era Found http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2370656.html The Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) announced the discovery of a temple and cache of sacred vessels dating back to the First Temple period, providing a unique archaeological glimpse into public religion in the early monarchy before the reforms of Hezekiah and Josiah.* [2] The 2,750-year-old ritual center was discovered at Tel Motza on the western outskirts of Jerusalem. The IAA press release quoted excavation directors Anna Eirikh, Dr. Hamoudi Khalaily and Shua Kisilevitz on the importance of the discovery. “The ritual building at Tel Motza is an unusual and striking find, in light of the fact that there are hardly any remains of ritual buildings of the period in Judea at the time of the First Temple. The uniqueness of the structure is even more remarkable because of the vicinity of the site’s proximity to the capital city of Jerusalem, which acted as the Kingdom’s main sacred center at the time.” [3] Discoveries at the First Temple period site of Tel Motza include anthropomorphic (as well as zoomorphic) figurines. Excavations at Tel Motza, carried out before construction on Israel’s Highway 1 in the area, have exposed a public building, storehouses and silos. The ritual structure, according to the excavation directors, dates to “the early days of the monarchic period (Iron Age IIA). The walls of the structure are massive, and it includes a wide, east-facing entrance, conforming to the tradition of temple construction in the ancient Near East: the rays of the sun rising in the east would have illuminated the object placed inside the temple first, symbolizing the divine presence within. A square structure which was probably an altar was exposed in the temple courtyard, and the cache of sacred vessels was found near the structure.” Because Hezekiah and Josiah centralized Judean religion in Jerusalem in the 8th-7th centuries B.C.E., the discoveries at Tel Motza stand out as some of the only examples of non-domestic cult uncovered from the First Temple period. Notes * [5] For more on the First Temple period reforms, read P. Kyle McCarter, Jr.’s “The Religious Reforms of Hezekiah and Josiah [6]” in Aspects of Monotheism [7]. (The full text of the book Aspects of Monotheism [7] is online for free for BAS Library members here).

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01-01-2013, 02:34 PM	#2
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	A few days back on MSN they had some great photos of these finds, pretty cool.

01-01-2013, 02:50 PM	#4
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	A lot of misinformation and meretricious nonsense in that article. The phrase "First Temple era" is archaeologically meaningless since no evidence has ever been found that a First Temple ever existed, much less dated to a defined historical "era." The article claims that 750 BCE is the "era of David and Solomon," which not only baselessly presumes such characters to have been historical (completely normal for the American news media), but doesn't even get the Biblical dating right. It's an interesting find that might be able to tell us something about pre-exilic practices (and it doesn't look particularly Yahwist), but it doesn't have anything t do with David or the First Temple. I hate that the media is always so naive in this area. All normal journalistic caution goes out the window when it comes to Bible stories.

01-01-2013, 03:20 PM	#5
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	I see the artifacts, and have no reason to doubt their origin or age, but fail to see how they are any evidence of a King David or a 'King David Era'. I mean if we dig up a medieval site and find a sword, is that 'evidence' that there must have been a real King Arthur and Camelot?

01-01-2013, 07:10 PM	#10
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The articles pander to public ignorance. There were no such things as 'Jew's' or a 'Jewish' religion of Judaism, or a 'Kingdom of Judah' at that early date. The Judean peoples were polytheistic and very independent minded. The power, authority, and political control of the people that the Bible ascribes to the YHWH priesthood, and its 'kings' is an invented religious fiction, likely along with any actual 'First Temple' that was dedicated to YHWH.

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