Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-22-2008, 04:41 PM

Nope. Acts makes it clear that James was beheaded.

Acts 12:2
He had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword.

Minimalist · 08-22-2008, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Is "James the Just" another designation for the same person?
Was this person murdered as described by Josephus?

Not to be picky but Josephus never actually says that James WAS stoned. He said he was "delivered" to be stoned but that other citizens appealed to the king.

Quote:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified;

The king, apparently agreeing, removed Ananus as High Priest. Josephus never seems to miss an opportunity to raise the body count so his failure to mention that the sentence was actually carried out is, at the least, an interesting omission.

aa5874 · 08-22-2008, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Nope. Acts makes it clear that James was beheaded.

Acts 12:2
He had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword.

There were at least three persons called James.

What about James the son of Alphaeus? And what about the James who had a brother named Judas?

Are you implying that anyone who was called James was the brother of the Lord, after James the son of Zebedee was supposed to be dead?

There is only one passage in the NT that directly mentioned a James as the brother of the Lord.

There are no passages that claim directly that James the brother of the Lord was a leader of any Church in Jerusalem.

Toto · 08-22-2008, 05:34 PM

You seem to have added a requirement that this James be identified as the Brother of the Lord. Did you think no one would notice?

There are a number of passages that refer to a James who was a leader in the Jerusalem Church, one of which calls him the Brother of the Lord.

aa5874 · 08-22-2008, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You seem to have added a requirement that this James be identified as the Brother of the Lord. Did you think no one would notice?

There are a number of passages that refer to a James who was a leader in the Jerusalem Church, one of which calls him the Brother of the Lord.

You make what are called "unforced errors". Acts is not regarded as a very credible work, it is not prudent for me to assume anything.

The passage in Galations 1.19 NEVER claimed that James the brother of the Lord was a leader of any Church.

And the passages in Acts that mentioned persons called James NEVER claimed that any of these persons were the brother of the Lord.

I no longer make assumptions about characters in the NT, unless the anonymous authors clearly and directly identify these characters.

There are no passages in the NT where a person is directly called the brother of the Lord who was a leader of any Church.

spamandham · 08-22-2008, 10:28 PM

Hi bacht, and welcome to IIDB. I'll throw my 2 cents in as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Okay, main subject: James, the "brother of the Lord", appears to have been the leader of the Christian group in Judea. (I prefer to take this title as a token of respect from the Jewish Christians).

Is "James the Just" another designation for the same person?

I have found no reason to believe otherwise, so yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Was this person murdered as described by Josephus?

It seems reasonable, so yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Was James the son of Zebedee a fictional character?

Possibly. There's no way of knowing.

aa5874 · 08-23-2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Hi bacht, and welcome to IIDB. I'll throw my 2 cents in as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Okay, main subject: James, the "brother of the Lord", appears to have been the leader of the Christian group in Judea. (I prefer to take this title as a token of respect from the Jewish Christians).

Is "James the Just" another designation for the same person?

I have found no reason to believe otherwise, so yes.

I have found no reason to agree with bacht, so no.

Doug Shaver · 08-24-2008, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

I'm interested in James because he may have been the most important Judean Christian of his day.

Probably so. It's a damn shame we know zilch about him. It sure would settle a lot of arguments if he'd written anything that survived.

bacht · 08-25-2008, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Not true. Check Acts 15, where James is the head of the Jerusalem group and the decider...

And in Acts 21, Paul reports back...

And there are further mentions in the epistles...

In each of these, James is recognized as the leader, the enforcer, and the decider.

Yes I was thinking mainly of the epistles. In Galatians Paul mentions "James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars"

bacht · 08-25-2008, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

I'm interested in James because he may have been the most important Judean Christian of his day.

Probably so. It's a damn shame we know zilch about him. It sure would settle a lot of arguments if he'd written anything that survived.

Right. The references in Acts suggest that James was known in his time as an important person in Judean Christian circles. The mention of the slaying of James "the brother of John" seems like a confused recollection (ch 12), unless there really were two James'.

This passage suggests a special status for James the Just:

And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brethren, listen to me.
Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written,
`After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will set it up,
that the rest of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.'
Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,
but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood.
For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues."
Acts 15

Obviously this serves the author's intent of defending the inclusion of gentiles, but it does seem to reflect Paul's interactions as we read them in the epistles.

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08-22-2008, 04:41 PM	#11
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Nope. Acts makes it clear that James was beheaded. Acts 12:2 He had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword.

08-22-2008, 05:34 PM	#14
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	You seem to have added a requirement that this James be identified as the Brother of the Lord. Did you think no one would notice? There are a number of passages that refer to a James who was a leader in the Jerusalem Church, one of which calls him the Brother of the Lord.

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