Doctor X

Hawkpeter:

Welcome to the forums . . . mind the hounds. . . .

You lose me with this paragraph:

since it does not seem to fit the rest of your post . . . either that, or my caffeine levels have reached a critical low. . . .

--J.D.

Hawkpeter

its either your caffeine of my excess water consumption. Had to duck off to the bathroom during that one, no wonder it came out a bit vague.

To clarify. I think there is stories of personal sacrifice that can be appreciated univerally but the crucifixion is obviously not one of them.


...is it the hounds Doctor X or is it the crap they leave around for the unsuspecting to step in?

Magus55

Gee Lana, I wasn't aware that you became said omniscient, all-powerful god and are able to know that one wouldn't set up said system. It being a man-made system isn't the only answer, since there are other answers, yours being the least entertained answer of them all.

Magus55

Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, because He was flawless. Sin is an offense against God and His laws. God must punish lawbreakers, or He wouldn't be Holy and Righteous. In order to make things right with God, we would have to follow the law flawlessly.

Humans, being sinners, however, are not capable of fullfilling the law.

Rom. 8:3, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son..."

So, God desiring us to be saved, and be made right with Him, did the only thing possible: fullfill the law Himself.

So God came to Earth in the flesh as Jesus, fullfilled the law perfectly, and became sin so that through Him, we could become righteous and made right with God.

2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

Rom. 8:3-4, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh. 4in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

There was no other way to do it. Sin is an offense against God, and must be punished. Since no human can obey the law to make themselves right with God, there is only one other person in existence who could actually do it; God.

The true sacrifice wasn't just the physical suffering of crucifixion. It was the Holy and Righteous God, becoming sin, something He hates, and breaking the eternal bond between the Father and Son - something never before experienced in all eternity.

The problem here is humans can't really understand just how horrible it was for Jesus to become sin, and be forsaken by God the Father. Its a pain and sacrifice we can't fathom, whether we try to or not.

Space Chef

In other words, he had to give in to laws that were already set, and not necassarily laws he made.

The problem here, Mag, is this 'god' not being able to understand how much worse humans have had it. You can blabber on all you want about the so-called tragedy of God becoming sin and blah blah blah. Here's a far worse example, and also with whole father subplot:

In a biography of John Kellogg, I read about his (fetish? of) circumcision practices. He would circumcise females by applying carbolic acid directly to the clitoris. He also surgically removed some clitoris. One surgery was at the request of a 10 year old girls father. The father thought his daughter would pervert her sibling's minds by her masturbation or something. So Kellogg performed the surgery.

It's also helpful to note that Kellogg didn't use anesthesia when circumcising males, so it's likely that he didn't use any for the girl either.

In that girls mind (I'm guessing her), her father absolutely hated her, she was probably hated by God, she was going to hell, her father wanted her to go through excruciating pain, and she had become the epitome of sin. Hmmm, sounds like Jesus...

And even if she didn't think that, there have certainly been cases similar to Jesus' long before and after his so-called horrible suffering.

Edited to remove address of pornographic website

Mageth

Since when is how entertaining an answer is a good reason to select it, or how non-entertaining an answer is a good reason to reject it?

Mageth

Gee Magus, I wasn't aware that you became said omniscient, all-powerful god and are able to know that one would have to set up said system and no other.

Artemus

So in answer to the original question we now have:

1. In human form he did not know he would become immortal
2. He felt all sins of all eternity in that time
3. He became sin

As I said in the third post, several answers are given to this question, all of which contradict each other and none of which is satisfactory when considering the theology as a whole.

To add a little fuel to fire, it is always fun to ask why he begged to get out of the whole crucifiction thing in Gethsemane. Rather odd for a perfect god to be wishy-washy about his perfect sacrifice.

the_cave

Well, actually, I don't personally base my allegiance to god entirely on that sacrifice...I'm afraid I can't speak for others.

I guess I've always thought the metaphysical implications were more important...i.e. god is a god who experiences death, just like us.

Quote:

As far as not making judgements for god goes, every fucking christian I have ever met (and unfortunately I used to be one!) makes judgements for god and on god every day when they interpret the bible to mean whatever they want it to mean to support whatever dogma they choose to abide by.

I was merely speaking in terms of judging whether or not they were headed for heaven or hell.

That's kind of a blanket statement, isn't it, Quarter? Surely it's an exaggeration.

Quote:

If the bible was actually clear and concise, this would not be necessary, but Mr. perfect pants, the almighty father of everything could not quite figure out how to do that in his omnipotent perfection could he?

Apparently not, so I guess it was impossible.

This probably belongs in a different thread, but my understanding of god doesn't make god to be the bloodthirsty murderer that many insist god is.

Quote:

Of course, we are not meant to understand god's purposes. We are also not meant to question them or apply reason to them.

Well, I for one do, pretty much all the time. And I encourage others to do the same. Not my fault if they don't! I'm just saying not all Christians are the same...

Mageth

I guess I've always thought the metaphysical implications were more important...i.e. god is a god who experiences death, just like us.

God being God, and man being man, God cannot experience death "just like us". Jesus is generally not described as being only man, or only God, but as god-man. Therefore, even in this special incarnation, I find it hard to accept that his experience of death was "just like us".

I have a hard time accepting that the God part experienced death at all. The human (body) part of the god-man died on the cross, not the God part, no? God can't (and didn't) actually die, can he?