Freethought & Rationalism Archive

LogicandReason · 12-25-2008, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Excellent point...let me rephrase...none were allowed to fester once the church had the power to make them disappear.

Really? How much do you know about -- and what scholarly works on the subjects informs your "knowledge" of -- Arianism and the Nestorianism or the Monophysite controversies?

And while were at it, what informs your "knowledge" of the belielf on the part of Greeks in "dying and rising gods"? I take it that the work of Jonathan Smith, Walter Burkert, and Günter Wagner on this topic is not part of it. Am I correct?

Jeffrey

CORRECTION When Jeffrey ask this question I answered that I was not familiar with Wagner's work...after checking the books I read on this subject, it seems that much of G.A. Wells work freely references Wagner. Let me also state, for the record, that Chapter 11, The Mystery Cults, of Earl Doherty's The Jesus Puzzle and several references to syncretism in Burton Mack's Who Wrote the New Testament? were the beginning of such thoughts for me personally. Jeffrey, while exposing my amateur status, clearly never refutes my original statement about dying/rising gods not being a Jewish idea.

aa5874 · 12-25-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It is not true that that such a level of critical thinking was not yet developped.

Jesus believers of antiquity were called ATHEISTS.

See "The Plea for the Christians" chapter 4 by Athenagoras.

The critical thinking of the ancients surpassed even those of today. Who today could ever dream to call a Jesus believer an atheist?

I think it is true. Jesus was not a God. Jesus believers are really atheists.

Justin Martyr reports the same in his first Apology.

Question: When antagonist used the label 'Atheist' for Christians, does this infer any thought process as to an actual existence or validity claim of Jesus...or does it simply infer they, like Christians, assume their myths are the truth while all others are not?

All that is necessary is to show that ancients DID question the existence of Jesus.

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-25-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Jeffrey, while exposing my amateur status, clearly never refutes my original statement about dying/rising gods not being a Jewish idea.

Three responses:

1. Where was your statement ever framed in these terms?

2. I didn't know I was supposed to "refute" it.

3. Even if the idea of dying and rising gods is not a scholarly construct, what is there to refute? Why would anyone ever have reason to think that it was a Jewish idea since the Jewish idea of who and what a god was is quite different from what "pagans" thought (ala Hesiod, they were generated and were as much a part of the Kosmos as human beings were) and the god of the Jews was incapable of dying. In fact he is the one who does any of the resurrections from the dead that Jewish eschatological thought and theodicies (see 2 Macc. 7) expected from him.

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 12-25-2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Adams never forgot his spirited meeting with Herschel (in 1786).

Years later, in 1825 he wrote to Thomas Jefferson, his successor as president, complaining of the orthodox Christian beliefs of most British scientists, and advising Jefferson not to hire them to teach at the University of Virginia, where he was Chancellor.

Adams contrasted these scientists' attitudes with Herschel's untrammeled vision. "They all believe that great Principle which has produced this boundless universe, Newton's universe and Herschel's universe, came down to this little ball (planet earth) to be spit upon by Jews. And until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world."

http://www.freeratio.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=256262

Toto · 12-27-2008, 09:09 PM

Pete's digression into his theory of Arian mythicism has been split off here.

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12-27-2008, 09:09 PM	#95
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Pete's digression into his theory of Arian mythicism has been split off here.

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