Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 03-07-2009, 12:52 PM

So what are Roger and Andrew contending here? That December 25th was picked to celebrate the birth of Jesus for some reason unconnected to the winter solstice?

Are you trying to hint that Jesus was born on that date, and the information could have been saved and hidden until it burst forth centuries later?

That pagans did not also celebrate the Solstice in some form? Or just not as the birth of a god?

GakuseiDon · 03-07-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

So what are Roger and Andrew contending here? That December 25th was picked to celebrate the birth of Jesus for some reason unconnected to the winter solstice?

Are you trying to hint that Jesus was born on that date, and the information could have been saved and hidden until it burst forth centuries later?

That pagans did not also celebrate the Solstice in some form? Or just not as the birth of a god?

Wait, what Roger and Andrew are contending??? Look, we all know that the Dec 25 date has nothing to do with First Century Christianity, so it can have no bearing on the origins of Christianity.

But the question of what celebrations were performed for the winter solstice (NOT "what celebrations were performed in winter") is still an interesting one. AFAIK Saturnalia was NOT a winter solstice celebration (unless someone knows otherwise)

So: What pre-Christian celebrations were performed for the winter solstice, and what is the evidence for it?

Toto · 03-07-2009, 01:49 PM

Saturnalia

Quote:

By the beginning of December, writes Columella, the farmer should have finished his autumn planting. Now, at the time of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar), Saturnus, the god of seed and sowing, was honored with a festival. The Saturnalia officially was celebrated on December 17 (a.d. XVI Kal. Ian.) and, in Cicero's time, lasted seven days, from December 17-23.

Lucius Iunius Moderatus Columella (Gades, Hispania Baetica, AD 4 - ca. AD 70)

So what is your theory?

Solo · 03-07-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

No, I don't think you are missing anything. The Roman solstice celebration was dedicated to Sol Invictus, and fell on December 25th. Until cardinal Ratzinger (Benedict XVI.), even orthodox Catholics had little problem with tracing the Christmas traditions to that particular festivity. The Catholic Encyclopedia (published in 1908) admitted without much blushing that the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, as the festival was known, "has a strong claim on the ...December date".

Jiri

The problem with the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti on December 25th is that it is unlikely to be pre-Christian. Some scholars think that Aurelian introduced it in 274 CE but this is uncertain. It may predate any Christian adoption of December 25th for the Nativity of Christ but even this is uncertain.

Andrew Criddle

I have never claimed the festival was "pre-Christian", but rather that even by the reckoning of conservative Christians, the traditions of Nativity and specifically the Julian 25th December were preceded by a winter solstice "birthday" festival. Even though it is, as you put it, "uncertain" when the dies natalis was declared in Rome, it is is not disputed that Sol Invictus himself has a syncretic pedigree of pre-existing sun deities, Apollo and Mithra, both of which predate Christ, and the annual return of which may just as well be assumed to have been celebrated. So unless some specific historical datum shows us that the sun god festivities in Rome derive from Christian traditions, and not the other way round, I am quite comfortable with the position Franz Cumont took (Mysteries of Mithra, Chicago, 1903, p.196-197). He noted not only the takeover of the nativity date but also the three daily prayers' tradition in the early Christian church coinciding with the three rememberances of the sun in Mithraism.

Jiri

Solo · 03-07-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The problem with the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti on December 25th is that it is unlikely to be pre-Christian. Some scholars think that Aurelian introduced it in 274 CE but this is uncertain. It may predate any Christian adoption of December 25th for the Nativity of Christ but even this is uncertain.

Andrew is quite right. There are many difficulties with the glib associations that one finds online. I got interested in the Sol Invictus festival a couple of years ago, and while it is entirely possible that the date of Christmas was shifted to replace that festival, there is no direct evidence of it and some of the data suggests otherwise.

....like what data, Roger ?

Quote:

The only mention of the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti comes in the calendar in the Chronography of 354 AD, along with another document which records the celebration of Christmas and seems to predate it.

...this would have been after Christianity became the imperial religion, correct ?

Quote:

The older Roman festivals all have a set number of games allocated to them; the later ones often have more, and this is therefore a festival created in late Roman times. Natalis may not mean "birthday" but "anniversary of the dedication of the temple"; in which case the festival would record the dedication by Aurelian of the temple of Sol Invictus in 274 AD.

...in other words, there were no "birthday" celebrations of the Invincible Sun. The one time dedication of a temple just happened to fall on the solstitium and that's that. I am ok with that Roger; I know where that is coming from.

But tell me this, since you studied the Nativity traditions: does the Orthodox birthdate of January 7 (or 6). originate in the Gregorian date shift, or was that the original Julian date of Christ's nativity which in the West morphed conveniently into Epiphany ?

Cheers,
Jiri

Quote:

All the best,

Roger Pearse

GakuseiDon · 03-07-2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Saturnalia

Quote:

By the beginning of December, writes Columella, the farmer should have finished his autumn planting. Now, at the time of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar), Saturnus, the god of seed and sowing, was honored with a festival. The Saturnalia officially was celebrated on December 17 (a.d. XVI Kal. Ian.) and, in Cicero's time, lasted seven days, from December 17-23.

Lucius Iunius Moderatus Columella (Gades, Hispania Baetica, AD 4 - ca. AD 70)

So what is your theory?

That this doesn't show anything?

Toto, did Columella actually write that Saturnus was honored on the winter solstice? It doesn't seem that way from the quote. It looks like it is a statement made by the webpage author. He appears to be saying that Saturnalia was officially celebrated on Dec 17 which was "at the time of the winter solstice". As an approximation, that is correct, I suppose.

But was Saturnalia celebrated BECAUSE of the winter solstice? There were quite a few winter festivals in various parts of the world -- Yule, Hanukkah -- but which ones were celebrated either ON or BECAUSE of the winter solstice? (As I said, this doesn't affect Christian origins, but it is an interesting question that might show influence on 4th C Christianity).

fatpie42 · 03-07-2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

He appears to be saying that Saturnalia was officially celebrated on Dec 17 which was "at the time of the winter solstice". As an approximation, that is correct, I suppose.

Make your blooming mind up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

But was Saturnalia celebrated BECAUSE of the winter solstice?

Since when was THAT the question?

All sorts of societies during this time had celebrations during the winter solstice. Christmas came to replace them when Christianity took over as the main religion.

Which bit of this is 'plain wrong'?

Edit: Sorry dude, it's late at night here and I got you mixed up with someone else. I suppose these are interesting questions, but I just find it bizarre that people are rejecting what seems blatantly obvious.

fatpie42 · 03-07-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

I used the example of the Yule Log because the time it is expected to burn so perfectly parallels the tradition of '12 days' at Christmas.

As has been pointed out, however, whatever you are referring to can have no relevance to the origins of Christmas, since the location and time frame are wrong.

The time frame is wrong? How? It happens during the winter solstice and is pre-Christian. The location is irrelevant since the feature of '12 days' was a common idea found all over the place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Never heard of it. But ... what ancient sources record this? What do they say?

So you're going from an argument from ignorance then? Are you suggesting that the festival is made up? Is it your view that we actually know nothing about Zoastrian festivals?

Just checking....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Which ancient text records the adoption of festivals from Zoroastrianism (the enemy of the Romans, remember?).

I know correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation, but I think the similarities are sufficiently widespread that we can suggest some kind of cross-over. Cultures did influence one another after all....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Saturnalia is a Roman, not a Greek festival. It ran from 17-23rd, and therefore has no connection with 25 December.

I do believe I already tackled this:

Quote:

This festival would finish with the 23rd December and since Jesus' birth was considered to be a victory it is unsurprising that it would be placed symbolically after the period of darkness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

The dates are wrong on all these statements - sorry.

Which? Sol Invictus didn't take place on the 25th December? It wasn't from the 3rd century? What are you saying? Surely you aren't telling me that the celebration of the unconquered sun was entirely unrelated to the winter solstice?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

You may not know that there are people out there inventing stories like this, purely out of malice, knowing that Christians reject paganism.

What the heck? Did I quote the Da Vinci Code? The idea that Sol Invictus is a winter solstice festival is not an invention, nor does it hold any threat for Christianity.

GakuseiDon · 03-07-2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

Edit: Sorry dude, it's late at night here and I got you mixed up with someone else. I suppose these are interesting questions, but I just find it bizarre that people are rejecting what seems blatantly obvious.

No problem. Note that I'm not rejecting anything. There could have been a 1000 winter solstice celebrations for all I care. It doesn't upset any belief I have. I'm interested in how people thought back then, so I would like to actually see evidence for it.

AFAICS some claims appear to be nothing more than "if it occurs in winter, it must be related to the winter solstice". However, that doesn't necessarily have to be true. Hanukkah for example occurs around this time, but it has nothing to do with winter, much less the winter solstice.

So if there is evidence for winter solstice celebrations, that would be great!

Toto · 03-07-2009, 08:28 PM

Hanukkah and the solstice

Quote:

the ritual of the Hanukkah lights is dated in Talmudic literature to the time of the schools of Shammai and Hillel, schools that were founded during Herod's reign. Krauss believed that the Hanukkah lights - a silent ceremony replacing the original form of celebration that included jubilation and palm branches - were meant to pass on the Hasmonean heritage from generation to generation clandestinely, in the wake of Herodian and Roman opposition. In this article it is proposed that the festival continued to be observed during the Herodian era, and evolved into the Feast of Lights, not in response to Herodian opposition, but with the active encouragement of Herod. . . . More significantly, however, winter solstice festivals marking the 'birth of the sun' sprang up throughout the Roman world following the adoption of the Julian solar calendar shortly before Herod's reign. Some of these were pre-existing festivals that were reinterpreted as solstice festivals. Even the Roman festival of Saturnalia, held on December 17, developed into a feast of light during the first century B.C.E., in the course of which candles were sent as gifts and lit on the altar of Saturn in Rome. Contemporary scholarship has connected this phenomenon with the winter solstice, and evidence linking Saturnalia and the solstice is preserved in rabbinic literature. It is suggested that these developments inspired the choice of candle-lighting to mark the Hanukkah festival in its new capacity as the festival of the cosmopolitan King Herod. The ritual of an increasing number of candles, and the affinity between the language used to describe this ritual and the rabbinic description of the Saturnalia solstice festival, suggest that the Hanukkah lights originally marked the solstice; they were reinterpreted and associated with the Hasmonean dedication in post-Herodian times. Finally, it is argued that references to Jewish candle-lighting rituals in the first century C.E. works of Josephus, Seneca and Persius Flaccus refer to Hanukkah.

From an anthropological point of view, all these winter festivals are "increase" - when light is at its lowest point, you light a lot of candles to encourage the light to return. And the point of least light is the solstice.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-07-2009, 12:52 PM	#61
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	So what are Roger and Andrew contending here? That December 25th was picked to celebrate the birth of Jesus for some reason unconnected to the winter solstice? Are you trying to hint that Jesus was born on that date, and the information could have been saved and hidden until it burst forth centuries later? That pagans did not also celebrate the Solstice in some form? Or just not as the birth of a god?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.