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06-13-2006, 01:44 PM | #411 | |
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Farrell Till embarrasses prophecy buffs
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06-13-2006, 05:58 PM | #412 | |||||||||||||||||||
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Hi everyone,
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But did Chehab say the wall shows evidence of bombardment? Or that it was from the 5th century? And Pierre Bikai says Roman columns and arena are above the Phoenician fortress wall, which was (we are told elsewhere) built to the edge of the sea! How do you expect people to build on top of a wall at the edge of the sea, as in an archaeological layer, I would still like to hear. So I think your sources are perhaps not quite so consistent. Quote:
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Now you seem to be concluding that the changes were all trivial, on what basis do you make this claim, please? I need to see the evidence for your conclusion. Quote:
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The lack of ruins near the pottery, the lack of hearing of reports of ruins after digging where they expect to find them, the claim that Roman ruins were on top of the walls (an arena!), these also come to mind here. Shall I continue? The hotel site not replying to me when I asked about why they made their claim, Nina’s account of the very causeway that Chehab (not Cherab!) said had the Phoenician walls, so she must not have missed this claim somehow… Quote:
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It would be like writing a book about discoveries of the writings of Plato, and not mentioning an original autograph manuscript of his most famous piece. Regards, Lee |
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06-13-2006, 06:46 PM | #413 | ||
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06-14-2006, 04:10 AM | #414 | ||
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Farrell Till embarrasses prophecy buffs
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Another problem for you is that the prophecy had no time limit. If I predicted that a specific small islet in the Atlantic Ocean would become covered with water, but put no time limit on my prediction, if the island became covered with water in say one billion years, would you be impressed? I doubt it. Within one billion years, or possibly much sooner, maybe all small islets, and all small islands for that matter, in the entire world will be covered with water due to global warming or other natural factors. Jesus has not returned to earth. If he still hasn't returned to earth in one billion years, and if you were still alive, would you give up Christianity? Are you expert enough in evaluating statistics and cause/correlation to quantify the odds of thousands of events throughout human history coming true? |
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06-15-2006, 07:02 AM | #415 | |
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06-15-2006, 09:11 AM | #416 | ||
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Farrell Till embarrasses prophecy buffs
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Another problem for you is that the prophecy had no time limit. If I predicted that a specific small islet in the Atlantic Ocean would become covered with water, but put no time limit on my prediction, if the island became covered with water in say one billion years, would you be impressed? I doubt it. Within one billion years, or possibly much sooner, maybe all small islets, and all small islands for that matter, in the entire world will be covered with water due to global warming or other natural factors. Are you expert enough in evaluating statistics and cause/correlation to quantify the odds of thousands of events throughout human history coming true? You demonstrated your ineptness in this area some time ago in another thread when you made some comments on miracle healings. I guess to you anything that is very unusual is miraculous, right, including very unusual bad things, including things that happen to Muslims and Hindus? You are obviously unaware that when very unusual things happen, those events do not beat the odds. Rather, they fulfill the odds. Mathematical probability states it is far more likely that very unusual things will sometimes occur than that they will never occur. The best evidence of a miracle would be if they never occurred, because only divine manipulation could prevent very unusual things from not occurring. Of course, very unusual things sometimes happen to animals and plants too. Miraculous, eh, Lee? If God exists, do you ever wonder why his intention has been to not make prophecies more clear? What advantage could such behavior possibly be for God or for humans? I know, there have to be good reasons because you have to rubber stamp everything that God does or says so that you will get to enjoy a comfortable eternal life. By the way, do you have any evidence that the version of the Tyre prophecy that we have today is the same as the original version? If it isn't the same, of what value are any of your posts? The last chapter of the book of Revelation warns against tampering with the texts. If tampering were not possible, there would have been no need for the warnings. Of course, tampering with the texts has never been difficult, and it would be quite easy today for some skeptics to rewrite parts of the Bible, take it to some remote jungle regions, and pass it off as a copy of the original. Would God allow his word to be tampered with? Of course he would. Ample proof of that is that he has allowed hundreds of millions of people to die without ever having heard the Gospel message. An inerrant Bible is most certainly no more valuable than no Bible at all as far as those people were concerned. When I was young I once read that 10,000 people in the world died of starvation every day. So, we know that God not only does not have any interest in spreading the Gospel message in a timely fashion, but he also does not have any interest in the tangible needs of billions of people. |
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06-15-2006, 06:12 PM | #417 | ||||||
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Hi everyone,
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Regards, Lee |
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06-15-2006, 06:44 PM | #418 | |||
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Verse 20 is somewhat metaphorical, but deals with the city becoming uninhabited. I don't see anything that refers to the trading empire, do you? Verse 21 says "thou" shall be no more, sought but never found. Everywhere else, "thou" has been Tyre, and elements belonging to Tyre were referred that way, such as "thy walls, thy gates, thy streets." Yet you are now trying to claim that all of a sudden "thou" does not refer to the city, but to an element belonging to Tyre. Specifically, what about the context here indicates such a change in focus? I don't see it. Care to enlighten the rest of us? Quote:
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06-15-2006, 08:44 PM | #419 | ||
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Farrell Till embarrasses prophecy buffs
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You ought to already know that no skeptic at these forums ever publicly gives up skepticism because of anything that you write. The undecided crowd ought to be your main intended audience, and they are wondering why you won’t answer my question. Actually, some of them must already know that you are well aware that you cannot successfully answer my question, and they know that my question deserves as answer. |
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06-15-2006, 11:11 PM | #420 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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* sink entire cities under the water without anybody noticing their absence, and then * elevate those same areas back above the water, just in the nick of time to be * rebuilt by the very same people who used to live in the city before it sank Which is pretty much what your crackpot idea requires. Quote:
1. Noah doesn't need evidence - you are the claimant, not noah; 2. Noah has already provided far more evidence, even though he didn't have to do so Quote:
1. Well, I'm glad you admit that the only reason you making that argument is to avoid watching the prophecy fail. 2. And of course, making an argument without offering any proof isn't going to work. The experts clearly indicate that the wall is Phoenician; therefore, the desperate speculation of one solitary uninformed christian are not enough to cast doubt. Quote:
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I don't have to prove that ANY of these things happened. All I have to do is show that you have failed to account for all of hte possibilities, before you tried to summarily declare that Tyre sunk. And, of course, as I said before: as soon as you get off your lazy ass and provide proof for your many what-if scenarios and speculations, at that point -- and not before -- you'll be in a position to demand proof from others. You always forget these points. Deliberately, of course -- you don't want anyone to realize what an intellectually dishonest person you are. But I am here to remind you. Quote:
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Consider Tyre's sister-city, Carthage: another Phoenician maritime power. Carthage had an intricate jetty/breakwater system: So considering that breakwaters and jetties in the ancient world (especially the Phoenician ones) were renowned for their complexity as well as engineering skill, you're going to need to support your claim that these were just "rocks in the sea and not buildings." Quote:
2. Since you haven't surveyed all the tourist sites on the market, you really aren't qualified to say whether these walls are being advertised or not; 3. The wall may not be open to the public, in which case there is no reason for a tourist site to mention something that was off-limits to tourists; 4. I already told you that the Lebanese govt has reasons to downplay any Phoenician finds; 5. The wall may have been discovered after the tourist website blindly copied the text that you trust so heavily In short, your argument from silence is not convincing. Quote:
Given that, it's fair for your opponent to respond by saying "Lots got recorded." After all, you haven't supported your initial claim about the frequency of ancient societies recording earthquakes. Until you do that, nobody owes you much more than "lots". Quote:
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1. an earthquake 2. at Tyre 3. at the time in question; 4. that sank the city; AND 5. some mechanism for getting the city to rise above the water again Quote:
There have also been earthquakes in Seattle. But the debris at the bottom of Lake Washington and in Union Bay didn't get there as a result of Seattle sinking. An earthquake in 500 AD still doesn't help you. You need: 1. an earthquake 2. at Tyre 3. at the time in question; 4. that sank the city; AND 5. some mechanism for getting the city to rise above the water again Quote:
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2. You are still stuck with the problem that you claimed a peninsula had to take that shape. Who says so, lee? Who says that rounded edges are a requirement to be a peninsula? That's not what the dictionary definition says, nor is it the standard that geographers use. Are you making up another requirement out of the clear blue sky again, lee? Why, of course you are, silly us! :rolling: 3. But of course if you insist, then I have to point out that the following peninsulas also do not look like their edges were rounded by erosion and silting. It's not the appearance of Kenai, either. Nor is it the appearance of Crimea: Nor does the northwest peninsula of Iceland look like that: See what happens when you make up criteria on the fly? :rolling: Quote:
None. As usual, you make up whatever random criteria you need to reject valid counterexamples to your claims. Quote:
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Your claim was that finding the ruins was less probable. But you don't even know what it was they have found already. Your speculation is empty. Quote:
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