Duvduv

Mountainman, along the lines of what you have been arguing about the Constantinian regime, for the sake of argument, how long would it have taken for the privileged Forgery Inc. to make use of existing materials floating around and to then create new texts for the new Empire religion to achieve state sanction (=canonization) in contrast to all the apocryphal and gnostic writings?

And given the fact that the canonical texts have significant differences and contradictions among themselves,and in relation to non-canonical texts, wouldn't it be rather hard to argue that there was some kind of centralized process at work? Surely a centralized effort would have ensured uniformity of teachings and ideas.

Jedi Mind Trick

"Hesus Krishna" to the author means "Jesus Christ"??? I thought "Krishna" Meant "The Black One" in Sanskrit and "Christ" has no relation at all with it.

mountainman

Twelve years 312 to 324 CE.



I think these did not exist before the canonical Constantine Bible appeared, and that they were chronological consequences of its appearence. I think the major apocryphal and gnostic writings were all authored during the period from 325-336 CE, with other texts authored perhaps later as well.




Canonization was not achieved by Constantine at Nicaea with his canon as physically bound in the Constantine Bible (which we may see as Vaticanus, containing "The Shpeherd"). Canonization was not apparently achieved until after the death of Julian. During the CLOSURE of the canon, the christian regime was engaged in inquisition, torture, execution, book-burning, temple destruction, and many other terrorist and illegal activities - it was, and often still is, a very corrupt organisation.

Why are Matt, Mark, Luke and John not exact photocopies? Witnesses were supposed to tell variant stories, a fact known in antiquity. The leadership of 4 people (The TETRARCHY) was backed by the Emperor and his army. If you wanted to know why the new and strange testament had so many contraditictions, his propaganda minister Eusebius would point to the Canon Tables (which he claimed were prepared by Ammonius). These were physically attached to the gospels.

If you had further complaint about the contradictions, then you could raise your compaint to Constantine. (If you were stupid).


Nero called forward the Olympic Games and competing in all events won all the gold medals. Constantine however was attracted to the high technology of the codex.

Steve Weiss

Your logic is along the lines of Orwell's in 1984 where history is rewritten to suit the government's agenda. You would probably agree with the construction of "faith in science, or faith in facts." Such usages is illogical and is a misapplication of the concept "faith." Science and logic are not based upon faith, and in both any preconceptions are discarded when there is evidence to do so. Not so with faith. Those who hold to faith deny facts in order to maintain their faith. The use of logic and science produces confidence, not faith. Science requires replication and predictability, both of which are totally lacking in matters of faith. Faith is arbitrary while science is constarined by reality, reason and the senses.

A miracle is that which rejects the broader context so that exceptions can be smuggled in. Faith is blind, while science and reason are with eyes wide open. Faith declares that a man can walk on water and the dead arise or are reincarnated, while science says prove it.

Denying the exiostence of miracles is not based upon faith but on logic and reality. Either one maintains the facts and logic and applies them consistently or oen rejects them and one makes any statement that suits one's preferences, regardless of the facts.

Being a religionist and a worshipper of faith I don't expect that an appeal to science or reason would be pursuasive to you because, in your view, wishful thinking trumps knowledge and facts, but fortunately we don't have to rely upon a majority vote for science and reason to prevail.

LegionOnomaMoi

Not really. We're still dealing with religious texts. Consistency would mean arguing that people like Plato, Euripides, Caesar, Plotinus, Socrates, Antiphon, etc., didn't exist.

sotto voce

So what of Michael Faraday, whose experimental genius goes a long way to permit you to make the above view known. He strongly believed in the supernatural. Then there is James Clerk Maxwell, whose landmark theoretical work likewise contributed to making this view public, who also believed in the miraculous. How is it that these and many more highly competent and personally respected scientists, of the past as well as today, were and are firm believers in miracles?

Steve Weiss

The fact that Newton was a theist and the other great scientists were as well is irrelevant to the truth of the propositions that they held. You seem to ignore the logical fallacies of ad populum and appeal to authorities in your viewpoint. Even if 100% of the people held the view that the earth is flat that fact would do nothing to validate the claim.

Secondly, beliefs are irrelevant to the truth. Beliefs are arbitrary unless supported by facts and logic. Many intelligent people in one discipline are totally without a clue outside their fields of expertise. Smart people can easily believe in dumb ideas and often do. Many great thinkers in history have been Catholics, but that observation does not validate transubstantiation, ressurection and virgin birth.

sotto voce

But it's highly apposite to the proposition that science and faith are mutually exclusive. That's what we are discussing. Ok?

Prove it.

We have had nothing but circularity, so far.

Duvduv

How could so much with so much variety been accomplished in one brief period of 12 years??

And I don't quite get your explanation for the lack of uniformity not only in the gospels but in the epistles as well, and why those overseeing or supervising the process were overseeing and accepting so many different versions instead of seeking uniformity.

mountainman

Let's take this slowly. They started with a version of the Greek LXX.

They used this for its antiquity, which they claimed was greater than the Greek antiquity. The greeks must give way to it. Moses was superior to Plato.


They then data mined the Greek LXX in order to fabricate the books of the new testament, which they claimed was a continuation of the grand epic story of the LXX. They paid careful attention to the detail of preserving the nomina sacra between the LXX and the NT. Joshua became Jesus.


They made use of the recent history of the Crucified Religious Leader Mani, the status of Manichaeans as heretics, and the persecution of the Manichaean church and apostles by the Roman Emperor Diocletian. They made use of Homer and Greek poets. They presented a new god who was a partial ascetic, in contradistinction to the asceticism of the Greeks like Pythagoras. Like Plotinus, Jesus had 12 disciples. Apollonius of Tyana was the subject of Official Polemic - His books were burnt and the Asclepian temple network torn down toits foundations.



Special Project Scriptorium


The "maud cabale" operated inside a scriptorium. Many professional and skilled hands made light work of the "fabrication of the Galilaeans".

It wasn't a big deal to them.



The forged letters between Paul and Seneca openly circulated in the 4th century, under the protection of Constantine's sword. The entire literary ensemble was sponsored by the Emperor because he wanted to get rid of the Greek hegemon in the empire in a semi-legitimate literary sense.

The sponsored authors and their editor did not have to worry about convincing anyone of that epoch in matters of uniformity, the uniformity of the Emperor's barbarian lead army was sufficient. The majesty of the emperor was paramount, even if he was Neronian.