Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clouseau · 11-07-2007, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

'Some time later, as the number of disciples kept growing, there was a quarrel between the Greek-speaking Jews and the native Jews.' Ac 6:1 GNB

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How many translations did you have to check before you found one with "Greek-speaking"?

I didn't check any translations. The word concerned has that meaning of 'Greek-speaking'.

Mythra · 11-07-2007, 07:26 AM

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Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Just my tuppenorth. I don't find the sort of argument based on what people 2000 years ago 'must' or 'must not' have done very compelling, myself.

Sounds like a description of the religion of Christianity.

Except wholesale presumption takes the place of argument or discussion.

Clouseau · 11-07-2007, 08:26 AM

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Originally Posted by Mythra

Sounds like a description of the religion of Christianity.

No-one's forcing anyone to be compelled. Chacun a son goût.

Amaleq13 · 11-07-2007, 09:38 AM

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Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Any chance you might actually offer some useful information along these lines?

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Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

(deleted)

I guess that is a "no". I certainly don't expect anything substantive from Clouseau so I had hoped you might be genuinely interested in adding something substantive to the discussion instead of petty sniping and straw men. How disappointing.

Amaleq13 · 11-07-2007, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

I dont have copy of the greek but I suspect that it does not mention Greek-speaking.

Am I correct?

Not according to Strong's:

1) a Hellenist
a) one who imitates the manners and customs or the worship of the Greeks, and use the Greek tongue
b) used in the NT of Jews born in foreign lands and speaking Greek

Does anyone think that could describe a leader of the Pharisees?

Since Clouseau appears unable or unwilling to offer a substantive defense of his claims and Roger appears unwilling to help him, can anyone else offer information that might obtain that missing credibility?

Mythra · 11-07-2007, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Chacun a son goût.

I was going to look up the meaning of this phrase.

But then it dawned on me.

I don't care.

Gudjonsson · 11-07-2007, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Chacun a son goût.

I was going to look up the meaning of this phrase.

But then it dawned on me.

I don't care.

Everyone has his own taste.

Magdlyn · 11-07-2007, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Since Clouseau appears unable or unwilling to offer a substantive defense of his claims and Roger appears unwilling to help him, can anyone else offer information that might obtain that missing credibility?

John Duffy

http://fas.harvard.edu/~csrel/people...ohn_duffy.html

http://societies.csc.tcd.ie/~theo/mangod.htm

Quote:

Vital to the cultural outlook of Jesus is his language. First century Palestine was a quadrilingual country: Latin was the newest language - the voice of Roman authority. Other than occasional inscriptions it would have had little influence on the average first century Galilean, so it is safe to surmise Jesus had little contact with it in his day-to-day life.

The lingua franca of this part of the Roman Empire was Greek. Jewish leaders from the Maccabees through to the Herodians would have been Greek speakers, as was Josephus - although he describes the language as foreign and strange to him, and even employed collaborators to translate his original writings which were probably in Aramaic. As a tradesman, Jesus probably knew a certain amount of Greek, and perhaps picked up more on visits to the Hellenised city of Jerusalem. It has been suggested that Jesus may even have had enough Greek to be able to defend himself at his trial before Pilate, but at the same time it is unlikely that the teachings of Jesus recorded in the gospels are in the language in which he spoke them.

Despite an enormous decline following the Babylonian Exile, Hebrew still existed as a spoken language in the time of Jesus. Quite a number of extra-biblical texts discovered at Qumran show that Hebrew was still alive in that community and still quite organic, although of course those at Qumran were not exactly representative of Palestinian Judaism at the time. It is likely, though, that Hebrew was still spoken in everyday circles, and especially among those Jews of a devout, nationalistic bent. Although Jesus was not one of these, we think, if we accept accounts of his conflict with the Jewish religious authorities over the Law, and of his teaching in synagogues, then we must also accept that Jesus was at least able to read the Hebrew of the Scriptures.

The general scholarly consensus on Jesus� native tongue is that he spoke Aramaic. This language was also used by pious Jews attempting to throw off the foreign influence, as we see in the half Hebrew, half Aramaic Book of Daniel. Many of Herod the Great�s inscriptions are also in Aramaic. Most telling though is the appearance of Aramaic and Aramaisms in the Gospels. Jesus uses phrases like "talitha koum" and "ephphatha", Aramaic which has been transliterated into Greek for the Gospels. Aramaisms include Jesus� use of the word "debt" to mean sin, an unusual metaphor in both Hebrew and Greek, but quite normal in Aramaic. There is what has been described as an Aramaic substratum behind Jesus� sayings: that they read clearer and more forceful in Aramaic. A problem with accepting Jesus as accepting Jesus as teaching in Aramaic is encountered when his ministry moves to Jerusalem. Here, Jews from the Diaspora would have come to worship at the Temple. How would an Aramaic-speaking Jesus have taught these Hellenistic Jews? One suggestion is that the disciples of Jesus who had Hellenistic names, such as Andrew and Philip, acted as interpreters. This would mean then that perhaps some of the Greek we have today as the words of Jesus would have been translated in his own lifetime, in his own presence even. Either way, the greatest weight of scholarly opinion states that Jesus was most likely a speaker of Aramaic in the most part.

Of course, in the beginning of the article, Duffy accepts Josephus' line about James the brother of Jesus the Christ as enough evidence Jesus actually lived. :

Amaleq13 · 11-07-2007, 03:42 PM

Thanks, Magdlyn. Nothing, really, to confirm Clouseau's assertions but I obtained some useful information.

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11-07-2007, 03:42 PM	#79
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	Thanks, Magdlyn. Nothing, really, to confirm Clouseau's assertions but I obtained some useful information.

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