Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chris Weimer · 09-30-2007, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Allegedly? Ridiculous to say, it hasn't merely been alleged, but has been thoroughly rejected by the establishment. But then again, Toto's anti-establishment...well, only when it comes clashes with his beliefs. :huh:

Can you give me some cites from the "Establishment" rejecting this?

Implicit rejection - who has cited, and its been more than a decade now, Stephen H. Smith?

Toto · 09-30-2007, 11:33 AM

A Lion With Wings: A Narrative-Critical Approach to Mark's Gospel (Biblical Seminar Ser. No. 39)) (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Review

Quote:

A brief, and somewhat surprising, conclusion brings the book to a close with the argument that since narrative criticism does not attain “permanent value” as a discipline by providing evidence for “the fundamental historicity of Mark’s account,” which “we must surely accept . . . , until it can be proven otherwise” (p. 235), it attains such value by its contribution to a religious or spiritual goal: “Mark’s is an existential text that draws its reader to the fact of the cross and impels him or her to decision” (pp. 235-36). Smith’s book, which, despite its conclusion, does focus on the literary, is, as he admits, too detailed for undergraduates or laity generally and too derivative for specialists. Perhaps his implied (or ideal) audience is over-worked and under-read graduate students and faculty who, while not focusing on literary or narrative critical approaches to the Gospels, yet sense--in the words of the D. H. Lawrence poem that gives the book its wonderful title—the “soaring consciousness” of “the lion of the spirit,” “a lion with wings” that is the Gospel of Mark.

I'm not sure how this addressed the question of historicity.

Chris Weimer · 09-30-2007, 11:46 AM

Typical - the first place I would look when searching for scholarly writ by Stephen H. Smith isn't Amazon.com.

Toto · 09-30-2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Typical - the first place I would look when searching for scholarly writ by Stephen H. Smith isn't Amazon.com.

Then provide a more complete citation. Or does that book misrepresent his scholarly position?

username · 09-30-2007, 12:02 PM

It really doesn't matter what was written then, the clear message from the NT regardless of whether one is reading imminent return passages or delayed return passages is that everyone in the first few centuries AD expected the return of the messiah and it plainly hasn't happened.

Today there are all sorts of messed up theologies from those that assume the prophecies refer to some future period not yet realized (such as Armageddon with Israel), to those who believe all prophecy has been fulfilled and the second coming can occur anytime.

This does nothing to change the fact that the generation(s) expecting the imminent return has all died as rotted with no return.

My mother's father told her that based upon his reading of the scripture the return wouldn't occur in his lifetime but certainly would in hers. He is dead and she is elderly. She tells me that it will most likely occur in my lifetime.

Right.

Chris Weimer · 09-30-2007, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Typical - the first place I would look when searching for scholarly writ by Stephen H. Smith isn't Amazon.com.

Then provide a more complete citation. Or does that book misrepresent his scholarly position?

Misrepresent? I dunno - I've never read it. Try, and I hate to feed you, since you always take it out of context and twist it to your own agenda, sometimes misrepresenting the positions contained therein, though that latter charge I daresay perhaps isn't altogether applicable here, Stephen H. Smith, "A Divine Tragedy: Some Observations on the Dramatic Structure of Mark's Gospel," Novum Testamentum, 37.3 (1995): 209-231.

Clouseau · 09-30-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by username

It really doesn't matter what was written then, the clear message from the NT regardless of whether one is reading imminent return passages or delayed return passages is that everyone in the first few centuries AD expected the return of the messiah

'With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.' 2 Pe 3:8-10 NIV

Toto · 09-30-2007, 12:20 PM

To Chris

"A Divine Tragedy: Some Observations on the Dramatic Structure of Mark's Gospel," on JSTOR. If you want to email me a copy, I'll be happy to read it and see if I can misrepresent it.

But I see you picked up on the word "drama" in my post that set you off. I meant that in a more general sense, not that I rest my case on Mark being a Greco-Roman stage play. I do think that Mark was writing to his generation, not reporting history, and I don't think that anyone in the establishment disproves that.

Chris Weimer · 09-30-2007, 01:16 PM

So you don't think it's a drama?

Toto · 09-30-2007, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

So you don't think it's a drama?

It woud really help if you wrote more than one liners.

I don't know that it was a stage play. The gospels have a certain resemblance to a stage play, and you can see various stage conventions at work - time is compressed, the villain dies on stage, etc. But I don't think that it is necessary to decide that it is a stage play to doubt that any history can be extracted from it.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-30-2007, 11:46 AM	#43
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Typical - the first place I would look when searching for scholarly writ by Stephen H. Smith isn't Amazon.com.

09-30-2007, 12:02 PM	#45
username Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: US Posts: 635	It really doesn't matter what was written then, the clear message from the NT regardless of whether one is reading imminent return passages or delayed return passages is that everyone in the first few centuries AD expected the return of the messiah and it plainly hasn't happened. Today there are all sorts of messed up theologies from those that assume the prophecies refer to some future period not yet realized (such as Armageddon with Israel), to those who believe all prophecy has been fulfilled and the second coming can occur anytime. This does nothing to change the fact that the generation(s) expecting the imminent return has all died as rotted with no return. My mother's father told her that based upon his reading of the scripture the return wouldn't occur in his lifetime but certainly would in hers. He is dead and she is elderly. She tells me that it will most likely occur in my lifetime. Right.

09-30-2007, 12:20 PM	#48
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	To Chris "A Divine Tragedy: Some Observations on the Dramatic Structure of Mark's Gospel," on JSTOR. If you want to email me a copy, I'll be happy to read it and see if I can misrepresent it. But I see you picked up on the word "drama" in my post that set you off. I meant that in a more general sense, not that I rest my case on Mark being a Greco-Roman stage play. I do think that Mark was writing to his generation, not reporting history, and I don't think that anyone in the establishment disproves that.

09-30-2007, 01:16 PM	#49
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	So you don't think it's a drama?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.