Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 10-16-2012, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

The DATED DEAD SEA SCROLLS STILL DO NOT SHOW ANY JESUS STORY IN THE 1ST CENTURY AND BEFORE C 70 CE.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are not complete. Many fragments still remain to be assembled. Much of the Dead Sea Scrolls deteriorated into dust.
We have no way of knowing what these lost manuscripts may have contained. There is no closed or rock solid case as you would like to imply.

My argument is based on the ACTUAL DATED RECOVERED MANUSCRIPTS.

So nothing was ever written, or has ever happened unless it appears, -in writing-, in some ACTUAL DATED RECOVERED MANUSCRIPTS ?

I wonder how many rational, reasonable, thinking persons will be willing to accept the 'logic' of that premise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

A verdict can be overturned with NEW Evidence.

Ones ignorance is not a stable 'bench' to be rendering verdicts from.

I don't believe you make for a very rational judge.I don't recognize whoever you think it was, that appointed you.
And I have no call to accept your self-appointed judgeship, or pompously delivered 'verdict' as being binding upon anyone.

.

Sheshbazzar · 10-16-2012, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Again, YOU CAN BURN ALL UNDATED WRITINGS ATTRIBUTED TO JUSTIN, AND ALL AUTHORS OF ANTIQUITY.

PLEASE, BURN, SHRED, AND UTTERLY DESTROY THE UNDATED MATERIAL OF ALL AUTHORS OF ANTIQUITY.

You MUST BURN THE WRITINGS ATTRIBUTED TO JOSEPHUS.

No, aa, No matter how loud you may shout BURN! BURN! BURN!
I'll not be found burning any of these ancient writings.

For after all, as you have often admitted, ALL of these writings are evidence.

Now why, all of a sudden, after hundreds of posts, with you repeatedly referencing and calling up this written evidence, would you want to have ALL this written evidence burned up, pray tell?

Perhaps because at the long last you are finally coming to realise, that this evidence DOES NOT support your theories?

.

Huon · 10-16-2012, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

This is not a proof that the works of Justin are mere fabrications. Simply that they are not necessarily a good copy of the authentic texts, if they existed.

And apart these texts, we have no external source for the existence of Justin.

His death is mentioned in Acts of the Martyrs (look at newadvent).

Your claim that "we have no external source the existence of Justin" is erroneous.

Justin is mentioned in writings attributed to Tatian, Irenaeus, Eusebius and Jerome.

See Tatian's "Address to the Greeks" .

See Irenaeus' "Against Heresies" 4

See Eusebius' "Church History".

See Jerome's "De Viris Illustribus".

And apart these texts (of Justin), we have no external source for the existence of Justin.
These mentions are from Christian authors. Nothing from pagans.
I do not know if there is a mention of the Jew Trypho in the jewish archives.

Sheshbazzar · 10-16-2012, 01:23 PM

And it needs added, Christian authors whose credibility sucks, and whose alleged writings are also highly suspect.

-Not that some didn't write, only that the latter church could not resist tampering with whatever it was that they actually wrote.

Yes, there was a famous Trypho, but he lived far too early, and besides wouldn't have been stupid enough to to play Justin's 'foil' or to have ever supplied that inane dialog presented in Justin's imaginative tale.
Justin's 'Trypho' the Jew' is only a shallow 'talking head' literary creation totally lacking any historical provenance or any depth of character. Donald Duck has more substance.

.

tanya · 10-16-2012, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You MUST BURN THE WRITINGS ATTRIBUTED TO JOSEPHUS.

You very well know that earliest copies of the writings of Josephus are from hundreds of years AFTER the 1st century.

If you reject writings attributed to Justin because there are NO extant manuscripts of Justin dated to the time of Antoninus c 138-161 CE then surely you MUST reject the writings attributed to Josephus bacause there is also NO Extant manuscripts of Josephus dated to the 1st century.

Well, friend, I fear the problem is FAR GREATER than this.

It is not just Josephus and Justin, whose works are suspect, due to a SINGLE manuscript, found only, by coincidence, in an Italian monastery, during the reign of terror.......

For my money, the most serious problem is with the writings attributed to Tacitus.

The problem there, we see, is that not only have we but a single manuscript, from an Italian cave, but also, that particular document contains ACKNOWLEDGED forgery.

In my view the "patristic" evidence is almost entirely bogus.

We certainly have an extremely cavalier attitude towards ancient manuscripts on this forum. Where's the original documents of Irenaeus? Origen? Tertullian? Clement of Alexandria? We devote incredible bandwidth arguing about the significance of this or that comma, when the source material from which we ardently quote, is entirely corrupt.

J-D · 10-16-2012, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I no longer accept Presumptions and Speculation about Undated or Unknown manuscripts.

This statement logically implies that at one time aa5874 did accept presumptions and speculation about undated or unknown manuscripts. I can't help wondering when, and why, this practice halted.

J-D · 10-16-2012, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You MUST BURN THE WRITINGS ATTRIBUTED TO JOSEPHUS.

Erratum

A small error has somehow crept into this statement, an omission of a single (but crucial) word.

Please read it as:

You must not burn the writings attributed to Josephus.

aa5874 · 10-16-2012, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

This is not a proof that the works of Justin are mere fabrications. Simply that they are not necessarily a good copy of the authentic texts, if they existed.

And apart these texts, we have no external source for the existence of Justin.

His death is mentioned in Acts of the Martyrs (look at newadvent).

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Your claim that "we have no external source the existence of Justin" is erroneous.

Justin is mentioned in writings attributed to Tatian, Irenaeus, Eusebius and Jerome.

See Tatian's "Address to the Greeks" .

See Irenaeus' "Against Heresies" 4

See Eusebius' "Church History".

See Jerome's "De Viris Illustribus".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

And apart these texts (of Justin), we have no external source for the existence of Justin.
These mentions are from Christian authors. Nothing from pagans.
I do not know if there is a mention of the Jew Trypho in the jewish archives.

What??? Your previous post was erroneous. Don't you remember what you wrote?? Tatian is an external source.

Irenaeus is an external source.

Eusebious is an external source.

Jerome is an external source.

Please, examine you own post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

...This is not a proof that the works of Justin are mere fabrications. Simply that they are not necessarily a good copy of the authentic texts, if they existed.

And apart these texts, we have no external source for the existence of Justin.

His death is mentioned in Acts of the Martyrs (look at newadvent).

You were wrong. Four writers of antiquity mantioned Justin APART from the Texts. Eusebius and Jerome mentioned the books that he composed.

Tatian was considered a heretic and was a contemporary of Justin.

Justin is attested by a contemporary, Tatian!!!

Tatian is a living WITNESS of Justin.

Tatian's Address to the Greeks XVIII

Quote:

And the most admirable Justin has rightly denounced them as robbers.

Tatian's Address to the Greeks XIX

Quote:

Crescens, who made his nest in the great city, surpassed all men in unnatural love (paiderastia), and was strongly addicted to the love of money. Yet this man, who professed to despise death, was so afraid of death, that he endeavoured to inflict on Justin, and indeed on me, the punishment of death...

Sheshbazzar · 10-16-2012, 09:21 PM

Christian apologists 'testifying' to the writings of Christian apologists.
Is only evidence that falsehood will invariably endorse and expand upon the falsehood that sustains it.
The 'Jake factor'; Once a lie has been propagated it will always require more lies to sustain and to maintain it.

proudfootz · 10-16-2012, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Christian apologists 'testifying' to the writings of Christian apologists.

Is only evidence that falsehood will invariably endorse and expand upon the falsehood that sustains it.

The 'Jake factor'; Once a lie has been propagated it will always require more lies to sustain and to maintain it.

This is why theologians, apologists, and others of that ilk will never run out of 'work' to do.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-16-2012, 01:23 PM	#604
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	And it needs added, Christian authors whose credibility sucks, and whose alleged writings are also highly suspect. -Not that some didn't write, only that the latter church could not resist tampering with whatever it was that they actually wrote. Yes, there was a famous Trypho, but he lived far too early, and besides wouldn't have been stupid enough to to play Justin's 'foil' or to have ever supplied that inane dialog presented in Justin's imaginative tale. Justin's 'Trypho' the Jew' is only a shallow 'talking head' literary creation totally lacking any historical provenance or any depth of character. Donald Duck has more substance. .

10-16-2012, 09:21 PM	#609
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Christian apologists 'testifying' to the writings of Christian apologists. Is only evidence that falsehood will invariably endorse and expand upon the falsehood that sustains it. The 'Jake factor'; Once a lie has been propagated it will always require more lies to sustain and to maintain it.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.