Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ken Brown · 03-14-2013, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

KB, your last statement

Hi Sheshbazzar, you really shouldn't drink when you post. It's unbecoming. KB

is a breach of the forum rules, as it is an insult to another forum member.

Hi Spin, duly noted, and I sincerely apologize to Sheshbazzar. Sorry for that comment Sheshbazzar. I'll try to figure out what you said and respond. KB

Ken Brown · 03-14-2013, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

The point about twelve hours in the day. Elsewhere, Yeshua stated that He has to work while it is "day" because, "The night cometh when no man can work"-(John 9:4). So it is obvious that when Yeshua asked, "Are there not twelve hours in the day, you should be able to see that the twelve hours did not include the twelve hours for the night. Each day/night cycle had twenty four hours, and three days and three nights would be seventy two hours. So if you rationally look at what Yeshua said, there is no logical way for Him to fulfill His SIGN by being placed in the tomb at sunset on Friday and rising at sunrise on Sunday.

What hour in the year was that 'third hour'? 'the sixth hour'? 'the ninth hour'?

At what hour in the year would have the resurrection taken place ?

What hour in the year was the midnight hour?

On what day of the week must the first hour of that year have began ?

Go figure. Get understanding with certainty, but see to it that you DO NOT reveal the answers to these things to anyone.

ששבצר העברי

Hi Shesbazzar, sorry, I still have a problem for you to ask me questions, and then you think I shouldn't reveal the answers to anyone. Why would you say something like that? Do you really want the answers? KB

Sheshbazzar · 03-14-2013, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Shesbazzar, sorry, I still have a problem for you to ask me questions,

You would have a problem if I were to provide you with answers.

For the answers to each of your questions you need to Search The Scriptures, and go figure.

In what month, on what day of the month was 'The Last Supper'?

On what day of the month was the Crucifixion? On what day of the month was the Resurrection?

The questions are purposely leading, the answers if you find them, are strictly for -your own information-.

Do not post answers to these questions, and see to it that you tell no man what you find.

You do not understand why now, but once you do understand, then, you will know why.

ששבצר העברי

spin · 03-14-2013, 09:35 PM

You're still not responding to anything, Ken Brown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Can you explain to me WHEN do the Scriptures say that they bought the ingredients and prepared the burial perfumes for anointing Yeshua's dead body?

My response hasn't changed. Why don't you answer the question yourself, seeing as the sabbath was over (16:1) and at the earliest (πρωι) on the first of the week they came, which was when the sun rose (16:2). You'd think the Lucan writer had heard your confusion and rewrote the text so the women prepared the spices on the day of preparation (23:56), rather than buying them early on Sunday morning.

Mt 28:1 simplifies the issue: "at the end (οψε) of the sabbath, as the first of the week was dawning [they] went to the tomb." This οψε is at the other end of the day from πρωι. It is where the day ends, ie with the dawning of the new day. The day goes from πρωι to οψε. Is there any way you can mangle this brief text to give you the hope of starting the day in the evening? (It's rhetorical.)

Back to Luke 23:54, "And it was the day of the Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning to dawn (επεφωσκεν)." The sabbath came at dawn, didn't it? You don't need to confirm. You need to find some desperate excuse not to read what it says. Of course, before the sabbath actually dawned they prepared the spices.

And in Acts 4:3 when they arrested Peter and John and "put them in prison until the next day, as it was now evening", when did the next day start? Obviously with the daylight hours.

Hi Spin, ok, so you are convinced that the Sabbath starts at sunrise, yet for millennia, the Jewish People have practiced a Sabbath that "dawns" or begins at sunset. And you take Matt 28:1 as proof the Sabbath ends at the dawn of morning, yet, if you would look at Luke 23:54, the same Greek word is used to speak about the Sabbath drawing near, and this is obviously meant for sunset...or do you think the Scriptures tell us that Yeshua was put to death early in the morning, at sunrise? Spin, I like discussing things with you but it appears that when it comes to understanding about the Sabbath, you really don't grasp what was going on.

It looks like you recognize the conflict between Luke and Mark. Luke states the women prepared the burial ointments and then rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the command, and Mark states they purchased the ingredients after the Sabbath. How can you prepare something without the ingredients? This is very easy to resolve Spin. The women were at the tomb on Wednesday evening as the Sabbath was dawning/drawing near, and then after that High Sabbath, on Friday, the women go out and purchase the ingredients to make the burial ointments, and then rest on the weekly Sabbath according to the command. The jaws of reason mandate that this is the only scenario in which all of these conflicts can be resolved.

Please do a little study on the process involved with making burial ointments/perfumes. It requires making a fire, boiling oils, adding the ingredients, and letting it cook all day, so there is no possible way that the women could have raced back to where they were after leaving the tomb as the Sabbath was starting, and have enough time to make these perfumes and then rest on the Sabbath in obedience to the command.

This ruse of expanding the duration of the preparation of the spices in the narrative fails to explain Lk 23:54-56: as the sabbath [the "ordinary" sabbath, for the passover meal had already been eaten at the last supper (22:15) and was passed before Jesus died] was dawning the women prepared the spices and then rested for the sabbath. Your attempt to ignore the chronology supplied in Mk breaks the chronology in Lk. At the same time you are expanding the duration of the spice issue, you want to compress time with the burial, for after the death of Jesus and Pilate was petitioned, Jesus was taken down removed to the tomb of Joseph or Arimathea, wrapped in bands, laid in the tomb, the tomb closed, the women seeing all this, returning and preparing the spices ("making a fire, boiling oils, adding the ingredients, and letting it cook all day") all before sunset, that's what you imply, given that this was not the day of preparation for the passover which had already passed, but the preparation for the "ordinary" sabbath.

You choose to not read the Marcan text for what it says, ie the women bought spices early on the first of the week and went to the tomb, because you choose to impose some a priori theory about what the text should say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

You really need to go back to the drawing board and totally revise your thinking on these issues. KB

You obstinantly refuse to look at the language evidence, despite a number of illustrative indications of the structure of the day and prefer to remain in your lack of knowledge.

When did the Jews start the day at evening instead of morning? When you consider Gen 1, the structure of the day is rather plain. God works during the day performing the creation. When the work of the day is over there is evening (ערב ereb = sunset) and there is morning (בקר boqer = end of night) and that completed the day. The day in Gen 1 was morning to morning.

Despite any evidence I show you to the contrary it seems you will continue in your unfounded belief that the day has always started in the evening for the Jews. Until you can show that that is not the case (by responding to specific indications) and you are not just wallowing in your own errors, I don't think you can say anything useful on the structure of the day.

:wave:

.

Ken Brown · 03-15-2013, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

You're still not responding to anything, Ken Brown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Spin, ok, so you are convinced that the Sabbath starts at sunrise, yet for millennia, the Jewish People have practiced a Sabbath that "dawns" or begins at sunset. And you take Matt 28:1 as proof the Sabbath ends at the dawn of morning, yet, if you would look at Luke 23:54, the same Greek word is used to speak about the Sabbath drawing near, and this is obviously meant for sunset...or do you think the Scriptures tell us that Yeshua was put to death early in the morning, at sunrise? Spin, I like discussing things with you but it appears that when it comes to understanding about the Sabbath, you really don't grasp what was going on.

It looks like you recognize the conflict between Luke and Mark. Luke states the women prepared the burial ointments and then rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the command, and Mark states they purchased the ingredients after the Sabbath. How can you prepare something without the ingredients? This is very easy to resolve Spin. The women were at the tomb on Wednesday evening as the Sabbath was dawning/drawing near, and then after that High Sabbath, on Friday, the women go out and purchase the ingredients to make the burial ointments, and then rest on the weekly Sabbath according to the command. The jaws of reason mandate that this is the only scenario in which all of these conflicts can be resolved.

Please do a little study on the process involved with making burial ointments/perfumes. It requires making a fire, boiling oils, adding the ingredients, and letting it cook all day, so there is no possible way that the women could have raced back to where they were after leaving the tomb as the Sabbath was starting, and have enough time to make these perfumes and then rest on the Sabbath in obedience to the command.

This ruse of expanding the duration of the preparation of the spices in the narrative fails to explain Lk 23:54-56: as the sabbath [the "ordinary" sabbath, for the passover meal had already been eaten at the last supper (22:15) and was passed before Jesus died] was dawning the women prepared the spices and then rested for the sabbath. Your attempt to ignore the chronology supplied in Mk breaks the chronology in Lk. At the same time you are expanding the duration of the spice issue, you want to compress time with the burial, for after the death of Jesus and Pilate was petitioned, Jesus was taken down removed to the tomb of Joseph or Arimathea, wrapped in bands, laid in the tomb, the tomb closed, the women seeing all this, returning and preparing the spices ("making a fire, boiling oils, adding the ingredients, and letting it cook all day") all before sunset, that's what you imply, given that this was not the day of preparation for the passover which had already passed, but the preparation for the "ordinary" sabbath.

You choose to not read the Marcan text for what it says, ie the women bought spices early on the first of the week and went to the tomb, because you choose to impose some a priori theory about what the text should say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

You really need to go back to the drawing board and totally revise your thinking on these issues. KB

You obstinantly refuse to look at the language evidence, despite a number of illustrative indications of the structure of the day and prefer to remain in your lack of knowledge.

When did the Jews start the day at evening instead of morning? When you consider Gen 1, the structure of the day is rather plain. God works during the day performing the creation. When the work of the day is over there is evening (ערב ereb = sunset) and there is morning (בקר boqer = end of night) and that completed the day. The day in Gen 1 was morning to morning.

Despite any evidence I show you to the contrary it seems you will continue in your unfounded belief that the day has always started in the evening for the Jews. Until you can show that that is not the case (by responding to specific indications) and you are not just wallowing in your own errors, I don't think you can say anything useful on the structure of the day.

:wave:

.

Hi Spin, you have named yourself well. For the sake of those who don't want to read this whole debate, I will give a final statement.

Yeshua died, and was buried on Wednesday at sunset. He remained in the tomb for three days and three nights as He said He would. At issue is the Sabbath which followed Yeshua's death. Was it a weekly Sabbath, or a special High Day Sabbath?

In the Law, it is commanded that the day which follows Passover (14 Nissan) be a holy convocation, and no manner of work done save only what every man must eat. What is a Sabbath? It is a holy convocation and no work shall be done therein. So, the Sabbath which followed Yeshua's death was the Feast Day Sabbath (1st Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread), and when Mark's account in Mark 16:1 speaks of the women buying the ingredients "after the Sabbath," Mark is referencing this High Day Sabbath, not the weekly Sabbath. And then with Luke, his recount of what happened is that the women who came from Galilee "returned" and prepared the burial perfumes, and ran out of time because of how involved this process was and had to rest in obedience to the weekly Sabbath, instead to returning to the tomb Friday evening. Friday was the day which followed the High Day Sabbath and the ingredients were bought, and Friday was the day the preparing of the perfumes was accomplished which preceded the weekly Sabbath. This doesn't take rocket science to understand, it is a very simple and straight forward explanation. Hopefully everyone does well with it, especially you Spin. KB

spin · 03-15-2013, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

You're still not responding to anything, Ken Brown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Spin, ok, so you are convinced that the Sabbath starts at sunrise, yet for millennia, the Jewish People have practiced a Sabbath that "dawns" or begins at sunset. And you take Matt 28:1 as proof the Sabbath ends at the dawn of morning, yet, if you would look at Luke 23:54, the same Greek word is used to speak about the Sabbath drawing near, and this is obviously meant for sunset...or do you think the Scriptures tell us that Yeshua was put to death early in the morning, at sunrise? Spin, I like discussing things with you but it appears that when it comes to understanding about the Sabbath, you really don't grasp what was going on.

It looks like you recognize the conflict between Luke and Mark. Luke states the women prepared the burial ointments and then rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the command, and Mark states they purchased the ingredients after the Sabbath. How can you prepare something without the ingredients? This is very easy to resolve Spin. The women were at the tomb on Wednesday evening as the Sabbath was dawning/drawing near, and then after that High Sabbath, on Friday, the women go out and purchase the ingredients to make the burial ointments, and then rest on the weekly Sabbath according to the command. The jaws of reason mandate that this is the only scenario in which all of these conflicts can be resolved.

Please do a little study on the process involved with making burial ointments/perfumes. It requires making a fire, boiling oils, adding the ingredients, and letting it cook all day, so there is no possible way that the women could have raced back to where they were after leaving the tomb as the Sabbath was starting, and have enough time to make these perfumes and then rest on the Sabbath in obedience to the command.

This ruse of expanding the duration of the preparation of the spices in the narrative fails to explain Lk 23:54-56: as the sabbath [the "ordinary" sabbath, for the passover meal had already been eaten at the last supper (22:15) and was passed before Jesus died] was dawning the women prepared the spices and then rested for the sabbath. Your attempt to ignore the chronology supplied in Mk breaks the chronology in Lk. At the same time you are expanding the duration of the spice issue, you want to compress time with the burial, for after the death of Jesus and Pilate was petitioned, Jesus was taken down removed to the tomb of Joseph or Arimathea, wrapped in bands, laid in the tomb, the tomb closed, the women seeing all this, returning and preparing the spices ("making a fire, boiling oils, adding the ingredients, and letting it cook all day") all before sunset, that's what you imply, given that this was not the day of preparation for the passover which had already passed, but the preparation for the "ordinary" sabbath.

You choose to not read the Marcan text for what it says, ie the women bought spices early on the first of the week and went to the tomb, because you choose to impose some a priori theory about what the text should say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

You really need to go back to the drawing board and totally revise your thinking on these issues. KB

You obstinantly refuse to look at the language evidence, despite a number of illustrative indications of the structure of the day and prefer to remain in your lack of knowledge.

When did the Jews start the day at evening instead of morning? When you consider Gen 1, the structure of the day is rather plain. God works during the day performing the creation. When the work of the day is over there is evening (ערב ereb = sunset) and there is morning (בקר boqer = end of night) and that completed the day. The day in Gen 1 was morning to morning.

Despite any evidence I show you to the contrary it seems you will continue in your unfounded belief that the day has always started in the evening for the Jews. Until you can show that that is not the case (by responding to specific indications) and you are not just wallowing in your own errors, I don't think you can say anything useful on the structure of the day.

:wave:

.

Hi Spin, you have named yourself well.

Name slights are against the rules, Ken Brown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

For the sake of those who don't want to read this whole debate, I will give a final statement.

Yeshua died, and was buried on Wednesday at sunset. He remained in the tomb for three days and three nights as He said He would. At issue is the Sabbath which followed Yeshua's death. Was it a weekly Sabbath, or a special High Day Sabbath?

You are merely asserting once again the sort of stuff you need to show. The torah talks about sabbaths and feasts. They are not the same thing, though for the feast of tabernacles (weeks), the first and eighth days were sabbath observances, ie treated like sabbaths. This is not the case for passover and the feast of unleavened bread. While the sabbath and the first and last days of the festival of unleavened bread are holy convocations (religious days), the first and last days of the festival are not sabbaths or treated like sabbaths, nor is the passover, which is the eve before unleavened bread. For full details see Lev. 23:5-8... hell, let's post it:
[T2]5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD’S Passover. 6 Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work. 8 But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.[/T2]
Notice references to sabbaths here? Neither did I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

In the Law, it is commanded that the day which follows Passover (14 Nissan) be a holy convocation, and no manner of work done save only what every man must eat. What is a Sabbath? It is a holy convocation and no work shall be done therein.

Thus far you are correct. The sabbath is a holy convocation, just as the first day of unleavened bread is. But you make the crass blunder of assuming that because they are both holy convocations, they are both sabbaths. This is a formal logic fallacy of the type: all dogs have four legs and all cats have four legs, so dogs are cats. Thus:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

So, the Sabbath which followed Yeshua's death was the Feast Day Sabbath (1st Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread),...

This is despite the fact that Lev 23:7 says that the first day of unleavened bread is a "holy convocation", not a sabbath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

...and when Mark's account in Mark 16:1 speaks of the women buying the ingredients "after the Sabbath," Mark is referencing this High Day Sabbath, not the weekly Sabbath.

You claim this, Ken Brown, despite the fact that the passover is celebrated in Mk 14:12-25 and Mk 16:1 talks only of the sabbath, not a "high sabbath", not the first day of unleavened bread, not the passover. You are perverting the text. Your views are straight eisegesis, injecting what you want the text to say for religious purposes, despite the fact that the text says no such thing. Shame on you, Ken Brown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

And then with Luke, his recount of what happened is that the women who came from Galilee "returned" and prepared the burial perfumes, and ran out of time because of how involved this process was and had to rest in obedience to the weekly Sabbath, instead to returning to the tomb Friday evening. Friday was the day which followed the High Day Sabbath and the ingredients were bought, and Friday was the day the preparing of the perfumes was accomplished which preceded the weekly Sabbath. This doesn't take rocket science to understand, it is a very simple and straight forward explanation. Hopefully everyone does well with it, especially you Spin. KB

As long as you keep trying to sell the error of the high sabbath, when there was no indication of any sort of sabbath specifically related to unleavened bread then you are going to keep making these mistakes, Ken Brown.

JoeWallack · 03-15-2013, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

For the sake of those who don't want to read this whole debate, I will give a final statement.

JW:
I think "Mark" would really appreciate that where you are finished, I Am starting and as "John" would say, you must decrease while I increase.

In addition to Mark 15:42 you may have noticed the combination here of no restrictions on what Apologists say and no Apologists. You should ask yourself why that is.

Your attempts to explain 15:42 in English is just avoiding the original Greek. You have to start with the Greek:

http://biblos.com/mark/15-42.htm

Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
2532 [e]	Kai	Καὶ	And	Conj
2235 [e]	ēdē	ἤδη	already	Adv
3798 [e]	opsias	ὀψίας	evening	Adj-GFS
1096 [e]	genomenēs	γενομένης	having arrived,	V-APM-GFS
1893 [e]	epei	ἐπεὶ	since	Conj
1510 [e]	ēn	ἦν	it was [the]	V-II-3S
3904 [e]	paraskeuē	παρασκευή	Preparation,	N-NFS
3739 [e]	ho	ὅ	that	RelPro-NNS
1510 [e]	estin	ἐστιν	is	V-PI-3S
4315 [e]	prosabbaton	προσάββατον	[the day] before Sabbath,	N-NNS

(and if there's anything that could help you here it would be (the) God-awful Strong's)

Note that the adjective here is "evening" and the noun it describes is "preparation". "Evening" gives a context of a day but "the preparation" gives the context of a day with a special significance. The author than defines the special significance (for his goyishe audience). It is a preparation day before Sabbath. Breaking down the offending word prosabbaton, we have the pre-fix "pro" = "before" and than the word for the Sabbath. "Mark" always and many times uses this word for the regular Sabbath. Since this is the word "Mark", the other Gospellers, the Fathers, the Bible scholars, the Jews and everyone else except you and a few Apologists use for the regular Shabbat, the issue is decided.

Not that it's needed but the subsequent context makes clear that a regular Shabbat is being described:

http://biblos.com/mark/16-1.htm

Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
2532 [e]	Kai	Καὶ	And	Conj
1230 [e]	diagenomenou	διαγενομένου	having been past	V-APM-GNS
3588 [e]	tou	τοῦ	the	Art-GNS
4521 [e]	sabbatou	σαββάτου	Sabbath,	N-GNS

http://biblos.com/mark/16-2.htm

Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
2532 [e]	kai	καὶ	And	Conj
3029 [e]	lian	λίαν	very	Adv
4404 [e]	prōi	πρωὶ	early	Adv
3588 [e]	tē	τῇ	on the	Art-DFS
1520 [e]	mia	μιᾷ	first [day]	Adj-DFS
3588 [e]	tōn	τῶν	the	Art-GNP
4521 [e]	sabbatōn	σαββάτων	of the week,	N-GNP

KJB, this Forum is based on Science, if you want to make shit up than go to the Theological Tweeb where there is virtually no scholarship and attitude is a substitute for research. I'm sure you/they will have lots to talk about.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Iskander · 03-15-2013, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

I will give a final statement.

Yeshua died, and was buried on Wednesday at sunset

Thank you for your summary.

Where in the NT say he died on Wednesday?

Quote:

The day of the death of Christ

Jesus died on Friday, the fifteenth day of Nisan. That He died on Friday is clearly stated by Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, and John 19:31. The few writers who assign another day for Christ's death are practically lost in the multitude of authorities who place it on Friday. What is more, they do not even agree among themselves: Epiphanius, e.g., places the Crucifixion on Tuesday; Lactantius, on Saturday; Westcott, on Thursday; Cassiodorus and Gregory of Tours, not on Friday.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08377a.htm

Why is the precise day of the week important to you?

Ken Brown · 03-15-2013, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Spin, you have named yourself well.

Name slights are against the rules, Ken Brown.

You are merely asserting once again the sort of stuff you need to show. The torah talks about sabbaths and feasts. They are not the same thing, though for the feast of tabernacles (weeks), the first and eighth days were sabbath observances, ie treated like sabbaths. This is not the case for passover and the feast of unleavened bread. While the sabbath and the first and last days of the festival of unleavened bread are holy convocations (religious days), the first and last days of the festival are not sabbaths or treated like sabbaths, nor is the passover, which is the eve before unleavened bread. For full details see Lev. 23:5-8... hell, let's post it:
[T2]5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD’S Passover. 6 Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work. 8 But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.[/T2]
Notice references to sabbaths here? Neither did I.

Thus far you are correct. The sabbath is a holy convocation, just as the first day of unleavened bread is. But you make the crass blunder of assuming that because they are both holy convocations, they are both sabbaths. This is a formal logic fallacy of the type: all dogs have four legs and all cats have four legs, so dogs are cats. Thus:

This is despite the fact that Lev 23:7 says that the first day of unleavened bread is a "holy convocation", not a sabbath.

You claim this, Ken Brown, despite the fact that the passover is celebrated in Mk 14:12-25 and Mk 16:1 talks only of the sabbath, not a "high sabbath", not the first day of unleavened bread, not the passover. You are perverting the text. Your views are straight eisegesis, injecting what you want the text to say for religious purposes, despite the fact that the text says no such thing. Shame on you, Ken Brown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

And then with Luke, his recount of what happened is that the women who came from Galilee "returned" and prepared the burial perfumes, and ran out of time because of how involved this process was and had to rest in obedience to the weekly Sabbath, instead to returning to the tomb Friday evening. Friday was the day which followed the High Day Sabbath and the ingredients were bought, and Friday was the day the preparing of the perfumes was accomplished which preceded the weekly Sabbath. This doesn't take rocket science to understand, it is a very simple and straight forward explanation. Hopefully everyone does well with it, especially you Spin. KB

As long as you keep trying to sell the error of the high sabbath, when there was no indication of any sort of sabbath specifically related to unleavened bread then you are going to keep making these mistakes, Ken Brown.

Hi Spin, within Judaism, Shavuot (Feasts of Weeks) is counted from the morrow after the Sabbath, and they state that this Sabbath is the 15th of Nissan, not the weekly Sabbath. Why would Judaism believe the day after Passover (1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) is a Sabbath, and you do not? Wouldn't you think that the people who were given the Sabbaths would have a little more knowledge than you do about them. You need to totally re-examine this issue. It all hinges on the fact that the day of preparation was the preparation for the High Day Sabbath which followed Passover, and not the weekly Sabbath. This is why John refers to it as a High Day or Special Sabbath (John 19:31). KB P.S. Sorry that I broke forum rules by pointing out about your name (I won't do that again). Why did you pick that name?

Ken Brown · 03-15-2013, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

For the sake of those who don't want to read this whole debate, I will give a final statement.

JW:
I think "Mark" would really appreciate that where you are finished, I Am starting and as "John" would say, you must decrease while I increase.

In addition to Mark 15:42 you may have noticed the combination here of no restrictions on what Apologists say and no Apologists. You should ask yourself why that is.

Your attempts to explain 15:42 in English is just avoiding the original Greek. You have to start with the Greek:

http://biblos.com/mark/15-42.htm

Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
2532 [e]	Kai	Καὶ	And	Conj
2235 [e]	ēdē	ἤδη	already	Adv
3798 [e]	opsias	ὀψίας	evening	Adj-GFS
1096 [e]	genomenēs	γενομένης	having arrived,	V-APM-GFS
1893 [e]	epei	ἐπεὶ	since	Conj
1510 [e]	ēn	ἦν	it was [the]	V-II-3S
3904 [e]	paraskeuē	παρασκευή	Preparation,	N-NFS
3739 [e]	ho	ὅ	that	RelPro-NNS
1510 [e]	estin	ἐστιν	is	V-PI-3S
4315 [e]	prosabbaton	προσάββατον	[the day] before Sabbath,	N-NNS

(and if there's anything that could help you here it would be (the) God-awful Strong's)

Note that the adjective here is "evening" and the noun it describes is "preparation". "Evening" gives a context of a day but "the preparation" gives the context of a day with a special significance. The author than defines the special significance (for his goyishe audience). It is a preparation day before Sabbath. Breaking down the offending word prosabbaton, we have the pre-fix "pro" = "before" and than the word for the Sabbath. "Mark" always and many times uses this word for the regular Sabbath. Since this is the word "Mark", the other Gospellers, the Fathers, the Bible scholars, the Jews and everyone else except you and a few Apologists use for the regular Shabbat, the issue is decided.

Not that it's needed but the subsequent context makes clear that a regular Shabbat is being described:

http://biblos.com/mark/16-1.htm

Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
2532 [e]	Kai	Καὶ	And	Conj
1230 [e]	diagenomenou	διαγενομένου	having been past	V-APM-GNS
3588 [e]	tou	τοῦ	the	Art-GNS
4521 [e]	sabbatou	σαββάτου	Sabbath,	N-GNS

http://biblos.com/mark/16-2.htm

Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
2532 [e]	kai	καὶ	And	Conj
3029 [e]	lian	λίαν	very	Adv
4404 [e]	prōi	πρωὶ	early	Adv
3588 [e]	tē	τῇ	on the	Art-DFS
1520 [e]	mia	μιᾷ	first [day]	Adj-DFS
3588 [e]	tōn	τῶν	the	Art-GNP
4521 [e]	sabbatōn	σαββάτων	of the week,	N-GNP

KJB, this Forum is based on Science, if you want to make shit up than go to the Theological Tweeb where there is virtually no scholarship and attitude is a substitute for research. I'm sure you/they will have lots to talk about.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Hi Joseph, you seem to be making a big todo about nothing. EVERY Sabbath had a day of preparation, weekly Sabbaths, and High Day Sabbaths, and especially the Sabbath Day that always falls on the 15th day of Nissan (after Passover). Passover is the 14th day of Nissan, and that day is the preparation day for the Passover (not the weekly Sabbath). So you are a little confused here about what preparation day it was. It was the preparation for the Passover, the Sabbath that follows the day in which the lambs were slaughtered and prepared. Why is this so hard for shackled minds to grasp.

(Jn 19:14) And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

(2Chr 35:6) So kill the passover, and sanctify yourselves, and prepare your brethren, that they may do according to the word of יהוה by the hand of Moses.

(2Chr 35:16) So all the service of יהוה was prepared the same day, to keep the passover, and to offer burnt offerings upon the altar of יהוה, according to the commandment of king Josiah.

The day of preparation for the Passover was Wednesday, and the High Sabbath began Wednesday at sunset through Thursday at Sunset. Hope this helps you grasp properly about preparation days. KB

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