Cesc

That's what I mean.
If Col. 1:16 says that "everything" (τα παντα) was created through him and for him, then that really says it. "Everything" includes evil! Which leaves the boring old discussion about theodice...

coconino

Cesc: The big issue for me is how anyone could possibly know what God's position is in relation to evil, other than observing what happens in the world. Those who claim esoteric knowledge are either lying, delusional, or special. Why should I be tempted to believe they are special when the other two alternatives are equally credible ? Why would God speak as a confidant to an obviously evil Pope, unless He just doesnt care ? Isnt it more logical simply to conclude that the Pope is pretending or delusional ?

Cesc

Personally I dont believe in God. Nobody can prove or disprove that someone has a special relationship to God, but there's a big difference between having faith and being delusional. The Pope? I'd say he's the managing director of a company with 1,3 billion clients so he has to do what he has to do.

Chili

There is a difference between made and created. Made means formed but formed after the image of God to say that the image is [first] created by God and Lord God formed that which God created and he formed it after 'its' own essence that was created by God. Hence, God created all things so the 'thinginess' of all that 'is' as in "I AM" is created by God after his own image and likeness.

Just read Gen 1 first and then go to Gen.2, = "essence precedes existence" wherein every-thing was good with 'bad' being the opposite of good. Evil has nothing to do with good and bad until Gen. 3 when the first "thou shalt not" was violated in the TOK of man (Tree of Knowledge) wherein we are separated from God and claim to have a mind of our own. It is here that we confuse 'good and bad' with "good and evil" and so became moral agents while outside of Eden where only evil can be conceived to exist, which then is in 'lala land' that is created by the Lord who probably doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground to say that he 'created light and darkness' and make peace and create evil, none of which has existence in being, but remain illusions in the TOK as snippets or extractions from the everlasting reality that was created by God and remains in the TOL, such as the celestial light, sea and eternal bliss, not to mention the 3 omnies that are also part of us upon our return to Eden where have no equal and are God in the mind of Christ.

Note that in the NT Herod was lord God and he was anxious to see Jesus in the end who so would bring peace to 'his world' with the mind of Christ (in Luke) and "my Lord and my God of John" of material John.

Chili

That could easy be but there is no "thinginess' about evil.

A good example here is agape, which is real and with substance [believe it or not] and therefore has no oppsite from which eros and philia are extractions and it is in these that opposites are found. The same is true with beauty and truth and finally life itself which is everlasting in reality and without death as an opposite but is temporal in the illusion as an extraction outside of Eden where yes, the opposites are created by the Lord who also rules with a vengeance.

coconino

Chili: I dont know whether you wrote as a demonstration of that old defensive chestnut (when a religious person is in a corner) that "God is beyond comprehension and understanding"...except of course when I want to use Him to make my case. I can be very intellectual and analytical and try to follow and work out the meaning of what you have written (I know you dont profess it); but I have to decide whether its worth it. I have found that as science and philosophy become more complex, the essential points can still be explained simply; so I am very suspicious of the kind of presentation you have kindly provided. I suspect that those kinds of arguments are intended to obscure not enlighten. So much about God in the scriptures, in fact almost all of it, is straight-forward (bizarre, contradictory, maybe nutty), but simple to follow. Why things have to get so complex when we are trying to understand "evil" and God's relationship to it, I dont follow. So I prefer to ignore that stuff rather than hurt my brain. But thanks..it is illustrative of the kind of tricks that apologists get up to.

show_no_mercy

Deuteronomy 22:25
But if a man find a damsel that is betrothed, in the field, and taking hold of her, lie with her, he alone shall die:
26 The damsel shall suffer nothing, neither is she guilty of death [...]

27 She was alone in the field: she cried, and there was no man to help her

28
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, who is not espoused, and taking her, lie with her, and the matter come to judgment:

29 He that lay with her shall give to the father of the maid fifty sicles of silver, and shall have her to wife, because he has humbled her: he may not put her away all the days of his life

sugarhitman

Naa ah ah ahhhhh, not so fast:


If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her (hebrew 'Taphas') , and lie with her, and *they be found*

Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.


Taphas is not a word used for rape..and they be found means both are guilty of consensual unmarital sex.


"But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces (chazaq) her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death.."



""Then Amnon said to Tamar, ‘Bring the food into the chamber, that I may eat from your hand.’ And Tamar took the cakes she had made and brought them into the chamber to Amnon her brother. But when she brought them near him to eat, he took hold of her and said to her, ‘Come, lie with me, my sister.’ She answered him, ‘No, my brother, do not violate (anah) me, for such a thing is not done in Israel; do not do this outrageous thing (n’balah). As for me, where could I carry my shame? And as for you, you would be as one of the outrageous fools in Israel.'


Raping women is condemned in Judaism...sorry.

OED

If you believe that God created everything, then he created evil.

I really don't know how apologetics could rationalize that evil was created independently.

coconino

Of course, God may not regard as evil that which we regard as evil. Pope Ratz said that the Vatican regards as the greatest evil those who support the ordination of women priests. Not massacres of children, stealing weak countries' assets, or stuff like that. Maybe God is simply an eccentric who is intensely relaxed by what we lesser beings regard as evil.