Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 07-28-2008, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Why should anyone engage you on this matter when it's evident you haven't done any real research into the Acts of Peter and the 12, that you don't know what you are talking about when you speak of this texts background and import, let alone what's in it, and that all you really want to do is to is to find ways of forcing this text to fit your preconceptions about what it has to say?

My research into this text has been collated at this page entitledTAOPATTA
The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles .

Quote:

Not according to Douglas Parrott in his the introduction to The Acts of Peter and the 12 Apostles in Robinson's NHL (or via: amazon.co.uk). See too 13–19.
Wilson, R. McL., and Parrott, D. M. 1979. Pp. 197–229 in Nag Hammadi Codices V.2–5 and VI with Papyrus Berolinensis 8502.1 and 4. ed. D. M. Parrott. Leiden. Why are you not familiar with this material?

I am familiar with the academic commentary on this specific text and refer you to the academic summaries page which you will see is entirely objective, and covers quite a few main commentaries on this text during the period, so you can go and stick your No Research Card back in your pile.

Quote:

Perhaps? Have you done much study in the NHL to know whether or not this is the case? Have you even looked at what the practice of the author of the Acts of Peter and the 12 is vis a vis this matter?

Who is the man on the dock holding the palm leaf?
What is this city in the midst of the sea surrounded by high walls and waves?
Why do the inhabitants refer to their "endurance" and "habitation"?

Quote:

Leaving aside the fact that it does not follow that beacuse you cannot find references to the name that the name must be derived from the words you think it's derived from, are you actually claiming that the author of The Acts of Peter and the 12 knew Saxon/proto German as well as Hebrew? For it is only in Saxon/proto German that "litha" means "midsummer", yes?

Read my post very carefully and you will clearly see the disclaimers. All I am doing is asking a question. In the first instance, it is possible that the author knew Hebrew. Have a look at the acadmic summary page and the comments of Hans-Martin Schenke (1973,1989) who compares TAOPATTA to Lucian's True Story. According to Schenke, the figure (Lithargoel) may have existed as a Jewish Angel, "something similar to a Jewish Asclepius".

In the second instance, about the proto German reference, I find that the period of time in which this text was possibly written (C14 dated 348 CE) is directly in the middle of a period when the ruling "christian Roman emperors" were descendant from Constantine, the grandson of a goat-herder from the Danube lands. I do not know the antiquity of the word in the german.

Quote:

And FWIW, you are assuming what needs to be proven -- that the "litha(r)" bit in this name is derived from the word "litha".

FWIW I am exploring possibilities. My position is that the identification that the academics have made to date, between Lithargoel and Jesus, is premature. IMO Lithargoel is not a Jewish, but an Hellenic Asclepius figure whom the christian apostles mistake for Jesus. It is a parody, containing an allegory of the "pearl" in the "city of nine gates".

I am also exploring the possibility that the "city of nine gates" reference by the author may indicate that the author had knowledge of the Bagavad Gita, where reference is explicitly made to the city of nine gates.

Best wishes,

Pete

mountainman · 07-28-2008, 11:12 PM

Here is a description of Lithargoel ....

Quote:

17 A man came out wearing a cloth bound around his waist, and a gold belt girded it.
18 Also a napkin was tied over his chest, extending over his shoulders and covering his head and his hands.
19 I was staring at the man, because he was beautiful in his form and stature.
20 There were four parts of his body that I saw: the soles of his feet and a part of his chest and the palms of his hands and his visage.
21 These things I was able to see.
22 A book cover like (those of) my books was in his left hand.
23 A staff of styrax wood was in his right hand.

IMO the author is explicit in refering to an epoch in which the codex and not the scroll was the mode of writing. Was the book (cover) the same, or alike. I wonder what the codex being carried by Lithargoel was, since we might guess what the codex carried by Peter may have been.

What is the significance of the styrax staff, and is it Asclepian? Also see the ample references to physicianship later in the tract, via traditional medicines and not miraculous acts.

Quote:

25 I, indeed, thought he was a man of that city.
38 He, for his part, did not reveal himself to them.
54 He said to the man who sells this pearl, "I want to know your name and the hardships of the way to your city because we are strangers and servants of God.
82 I hurried and went and called my friends so that we might go to the city that he, Lithargoel, appointed for us.
91 As we discussed the robbers on the road, whom we evaded, behold Lithargoel, having changed, came out to us.
92 He had the appearance of a physician, since an unguent box was under his arm, and a young disciple was following him carrying a pouch full of medicine.
96 But I am amazed at how you knew this good man

Why do the thirteen apostles prostrate themselves? Twice? Why 13, or 12 or 11 apostles. Parody? Do we truly know who this good man Lithargoel was? My page on contemporary BC&H scholarship indicates everyone is backing Jesus. I think this may a mistake. The author may well be pagan. Have a close look at the rest of the codex NHC six.

NHC 6 is heavily pagan. If the author is indeed just a pagan author, then he is being clever. He is taking the mickey out of the christians. The christians having no sense of humour cannot see the parody on themselves.

Best wishes,

Pete

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