Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 04-08-2007, 08:06 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Well, if I told you a miracle occured and I know that no miracle actually happened, do I believe in miracles? Do I want to deceive you? What am I really doing?

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Originally Posted by Toto

You might be embellishing the truth to make a better story.

I don't understand, I made a false claim knowingly, I claimed that a miracle happened when it did not, and you say it might be embellished truth. Isn't it an embellished lie?

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Originally Posted by aa5874

If I told you 'Jo Clo' raised 'Lacamus' from the dead, which part of the story is true?

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Originally Posted by Toto

No part, since no one here believes in miracles. But so what?

What I am trying to point out is that 'Jo Clo' and 'Lacamus' are fictitious characters. So, if it is said the Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, it is likely that Jesus, Lazarus and the miracle are all fictitious, until there is credible extra-biblical information to corroborate the existence of Jesus.

Amaleq13 · 04-08-2007, 09:06 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

I think you did not read my post properly or there is some mis-understanding.

Actually, I was thinking about a previous post of yours in which you were equating Greek myths and the Gospel stories about Jesus.

What stories depict any of the Greek gods interacting with known historical figures in a known historical timeframe?

aa5874 · 04-08-2007, 10:18 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

Would you agree that most people in the first century left no historical record?

I agree.

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Originally Posted by Toto

And that if Jesus existed, you would not expect to find much more than variable unconfirmed stories?

I cannot speculate on what might have happened if Jesus existed. However, we have artifacts and written information about figures of antiquity, and if Jesus existed and was indeed probably the most famous and interesting Jew of antiquity, that is not reflected by any Jewish historian, that I know of, in the 1st century.

And what it is even stranger, no Jewish historian mentions a single follower or teaching of Jesus in the 1st century.

Anyhow I may have erred, is there any HJer that can correct me? Surely, someone, some historian must have written something about the man regarded as probably the most famous and interesting Jew in antiquity.

Chris Weimer · 04-08-2007, 10:35 PM

aa5874 · 04-08-2007, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Actually, I was thinking about a previous post of yours in which you were equating Greek myths and the Gospel stories about Jesus.

What stories depict any of the Greek gods interacting with known historical figures in a known historical timeframe?

Please put your thoughts together because I may have answered your follow-up question already.

aa5874 · 04-08-2007, 11:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

A little late for Jeffrey, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by aa5874

How can Jesus be, according to the NT?

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Originally Posted by jgibson000

According to Mark--who knows neither Matthew not Luke--it is through sexual union of Mary and Joseph. According to Matthew, through a man other than Joseph. According to Paul through human generation.

Huon · 04-09-2007, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I cannot speculate on what might have happened if Jesus existed. However, we have artifacts and written information about figures of antiquity, and if Jesus existed and was indeed probably the most famous and interesting Jew of antiquity, that is not reflected by any Jewish historian, that I know of, in the 1st century.

And what it is even stranger, no Jewish historian mentions a single follower or teaching of Jesus in the 1st century.

Anyhow I may have erred, is there any HJer that can correct me? Surely, someone, some historian must have written something about the man regarded as probably the most famous and interesting Jew in antiquity.

"The most famous and interesting Jew in antiquity" is the opinion of Shaye I. D. Cohen, at the turn of the XXIth century.

This opinion cannot be ascribed to a Jewish historian of the Ist century without caution. It could simply be an anachronism. Presently, it is a certainty that the Mormons exist in France, and it is also a certainty that no historian will write anything of them in a history of France. They are not "famous and interesting" now. Perhaps, they will be "famous and interesting" in a few centuries ?

Juma · 04-09-2007, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

"The most famous and interesting Jew in antiquity" is the opinion of Shaye I. D. Cohen, at the turn of the XXIth century.

This opinion cannot be ascribed to a Jewish historian of the Ist century without caution. It could simply be an anachronism. Presently, it is a certainty that the Mormons exist in France, and it is also a certainty that no historian will write anything of them in a history of France. They are not "famous and interesting" now. Perhaps, they will be "famous and interesting" in a few centuries ?

They would be famous if they performed what Jesus supposedly performed... And a mormon leader executed would really be something for the historians...

An executed mormon leader that shows himself to his people after the execution... that would just be to much...

Agemegos · 04-09-2007, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

What stories depict any of the Greek gods interacting with known historical figures in a known historical timeframe?

Herodotus, book six 105. Pheidippides spoke with Pan on Mount Parthenion in September 490 BCE.

Amaleq13 · 04-09-2007, 08:41 AM

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Originally Posted by Agemegos

Herodotus, book six 105. Pheidippides spoke with Pan on Mount Parthenion in September 490 BCE.

Thank you.

That constitutes an answer to my question.

Double-a could learn something from you.

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Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879

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