Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 05-23-2012, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised)

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised)

Jesus was called the son of man. Are you sure about this?

Jesus frequently uses the term, implying its relevance to himself, eg Mk 8:31,

the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Sorry, my question was vague. I was asking if you were sure about your conclusion.

It seems like "son of man" could be a figurative phrase related somehow to its usage, "Christ." It is also odd (to me) to hear a specific meaning of "human" defined for it. I don't recall instances where "son of man" has meant something else such as "human," but then I don't recall a lot of things. So maybe I am wrong. Can you give an example where the phrase is used where it obviously means "human?"

Num 23:19, Job 35:8, Ps 8:4, 80:17, 144:3, Isa 51:12, Jer 49:18. This last is

As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it.

And check out any of the references in Ezekiel where god uses it disparagingly for the prophet very frequently.

There is no use in the Hebrew bible where "son of man" means other than human offspring.

Did I understand your thought?

Don2 (Don1 Revised) · 05-23-2012, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised)

Sorry, my question was vague. I was asking if you were sure about your conclusion.

It seems like "son of man" could be a figurative phrase related somehow to its usage, "Christ." It is also odd (to me) to hear a specific meaning of "human" defined for it. I don't recall instances where "son of man" has meant something else such as "human," but then I don't recall a lot of things. So maybe I am wrong. Can you give an example where the phrase is used where it obviously means "human?"

Num 23:19, Job 35:8, Ps 8:4, 80:17, 144:3, Isa 51:12, Jer 49:18. This last is

As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it.

And check out any of the references in Ezekiel where god uses it disparagingly for the prophet very frequently.

There is no use in the Hebrew bible where "son of man" means other than human offspring.

Did I understand your thought?

Yes, you did and I think you made a good case.

It's been a couple of decades since I read much of the Bible and for some reason reference of "the son of man" from the gospels stood out more in my memory than "a son of man" in OT.

Achwienichtig · 06-01-2012, 04:52 AM

:blank:

thief of fire · 06-17-2012, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thief of Fire

In Daniel we see a change where "one like ason of man" comes on clouds.
Daniel 7
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Jesus, in matthew seems to be combining all these themes. He sees himself "coming on clouds" like Daniel but rather than going to the "ancient of days" he will be seen by the tribes of the earth, and unlike in daniel but like the hebrews prophets writings this coming on clouds is associated with a great calamity that befalls, in this case, Jerusalem.

The citation from Daniel shows that someone didn't understand the text on two grounds.

The author of Matthew consistently "misunderstands" texts. The point is he still uses Daniel to write his text here.

spin · 06-18-2012, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thief of fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thief of Fire

In Daniel we see a change where "one like ason of man" comes on clouds.
Daniel 7
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Jesus, in matthew seems to be combining all these themes. He sees himself "coming on clouds" like Daniel but rather than going to the "ancient of days" he will be seen by the tribes of the earth, and unlike in daniel but like the hebrews prophets writings this coming on clouds is associated with a great calamity that befalls, in this case, Jerusalem.

The citation from Daniel shows that someone didn't understand the text on two grounds.

The author of Matthew consistently "misunderstands" texts. The point is he still uses Daniel to write his text here.

Don't blame the Matthean writer: this was taken from Mark.

Toto · 11-29-2012, 09:48 PM

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06-01-2012, 04:52 AM	#23
Achwienichtig Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Albany NY Posts: 2,308	:blank:

11-29-2012, 09:48 PM	#26
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This will be unstickied.

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