lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Well, by "a building" I meant that you could point to concrete evidence (pun intended?), the meaning here was that you could take a person to this place and point to a building. Pick one! So I meant that you could put the evidence undeniably in front of someone, not that only one building was required.

Well, no, I just have discussed Tyre enough for now. And I need not prove this for Babylon, because a prophecy saying "a city will never be rebuilt" cannot be made after the fact, and it doesn't really matter exactly who wrote it.

Well, again, it seems you have decided that overturning other prophecies is a reasonable endeavor, for whatever reason you may have. Then I wonder why you refuse such an opportunity to overturn a prophecy saying a city will never be rebuilt. Again, your evidence would be shining in the sun, firm and undeniable, you would have accomplished your purpose, what you are attempting in these other threads.

I think this would be more undeniable than having Arabs pitch tents there, but either attempt would be fine with me...

Regards,
Lee

Johnny Skeptic

There is nothing to discuss except for you to tell us whether or not you can accurately date the Tyre prophecy. A simple yes or no will do. How about it? Everybody, including you, already knows that you can’t accurately date the prophecy, so if you refuse to give me a simple yes or no answer, I will interpret that as an admission of defeat on your part. I would never refuse to answer any of your questions. I have debated fundamentalist Christians for years, and I have learned from personal experience that they become frequently evasive whenever they know that answering questions will embarrass them. Your evasiveness will not help you. I will use my argument about dating at some Christian web sites where some Christians will not be afraid to reply to my argument about dating, and I will post the results in this thread.

In your typically evasive fashion, you didn’t answer my questions. I said:

“How would falsifying the Babylon prophecy benefit Muslims and skeptics? Would the size of the Christian Church decrease significantly? Would U.S. foreign policy towards Muslims change?� Please answer my questions. Your evasiveness is dishonest.

Regarding “Well, again, it seems you have decided that overturning other prophecies is a reasonable endeavor,� it IS NOT a reasonable endeavor for skeptics to discredit any or all of the Babylon prophecy unless the size of the Christian Church would decrease significantly, and it IS NOT a reasonable endeavor for Muslims to discredit any or all of the Babylon prophecy unless the size of the Christian Church would decrease significantly, and even more importantly, if U.S. foreign policy towards them would change.

Good. I will make the attempt to have Arabs pitch their tents in Babylon if you will provide proof from a representative sampling in a poll that shows that just 1% of Christians will give up Christianity if Arabs pitch their tents in Babylon, and on the behalf of Muslims if you will provide proof that U.S. foreign policy towards them will change if the attempt is successful.

Sauron

That's already been done, in this case. You've been pointed to the photographs before, containing pictures of Saddam's palace, the auxiliary buildings, and local Iraqis who live there. The evidence has been "put in front of someone" - in this case, you:




Yet in spite of that, you still try to deny that your own conditions for overturning the babylon prophecy have been met. Why is that?

When given clear, convincing proof of failure, you refuse to acknowledge it.

Is it any wonder that we insist you prove that rebuilding babylon would cause christians to doubt their bible and leave christianity first, before asking us to spend any effort to rebuild babylon? Given your denial in the face of photographic evidence, why should anyone trust you?

Except when you pop back into the thread to make a point, and then scuttle away again when you're challenged on it.

Nonsense on both claims. You just make up these new rules and guidelines for interpretation as you go, don't you?

1. Why can't a prophecy saying "a city will never be rebuilt" be written down after the fact? What's to prevent it? You're characteristically vague on this point; that simply won't do.

2. It seems to matter a great deal who wrote it. If the person lived before the destruction that puts different perspective than if the person lived after the destruction.

Because it's already been done a half-dozen times. The Babylon prophecy fails on at least six points of the prophecy; possibly more. No reason to overturn something that is ALREADY OVERTURNED.

1. The evidence of prophetic failure is already undeniable; on at least six points this prophecy self-destructed and is a total flop.
2. The palace of Saddam is sitting in the sun and shining just fine, thank you very much.

Given your record of persistent denial, even if someone put 30-story skyscrapers on the site of babylon we all know what would happen next: you'd try to find some way of wiggling out of admitting the prophetic failure. You've been presented with photographic evidence that your conditions were met, yet you still try to evade. Considering how frequently you change your story, revised your conditions and move the goalposts, you can't really expect anyone to take up your lame challenge, lee.

You're the one who claims that Arabs have never pitched tents there. Why should we spend time and energy to disprove your unfounded claim?

Johnny Skeptic

Yes, that is the main issue, and that issue has led to Lee Merrill's defeat even if parts of Babylon had not been rebuilt.

Johnny Skeptic

Following are some excerpts from a Christian web site at http://www.pbc.org/dp/stedman/isaiah/0580.html:

“I wish I could cover these passages in detail, but I must move rather rapidly. Chapters 13 and 14 concern the city of Babylon; "the burden of Babylon," or, "the oracle concerning Babylon," as it is in the RSV. When Isaiah wrote this, Babylon was not yet a world power but only a small city on the banks of the Euphrates River. It would not come into world prominence for 200 years after Isaiah. What the prophet is describing here is not the rise of Babylon as a great city and world power, but the fall of the empire. The chapter opens in beautiful poetic language with a description of an army assaulting the gates of the city, and the summons comes from God to enter its gates and capture the city. This is historically fulfilled in Chapter 5 of the book of Daniel. There is recorded the story of the conquering of Babylon under its king, Belshazzar. During a great feast which the king gave in the palace he brought out the vessels from the temple in Jerusalem and used them in riotous debauchery. A supernatural hand appeared and wrote on the wall, "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin," meaning, "Your kingdom has been numbered and divided among the Medes and Persians."

The preceding makes a mockery out of Lee Merrill’s arguments. A number of Bible commentaries make similar arguments.

Consider the following excerpts from another Christian web site at http://askelm.com/prophecy/p021002.htm:

“All that was said and is said of Babylon in its excellence for situation, in its wickedness, in its superstition, in its demonism, in its superficiality in its merchandise, in its traffic, and in its godlessness, finds its counterpart in the description of the Babylon of Revelation 18.�

“The certainty of the rebuilding of Babylon is proclaimed in the sure Word of Prophecy, because we are therein told it will become a great commercial center.�

Consider the following from a Christian web site at http://askelm.com/prophecy/p021001.htm:

“The rebirth of Babylon is destined to play one of the leading roles in the end-time fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Its influence will be worldwide—affecting all people. Yet the majority of people today have little conception of the prophecies concerning the rebuilding of Babylon. The Bible not only shows that a literal Babylon will exist at the end of our age in majestic glory, but it will be resurrected in the same location as its ancient predecessor in the Middle East.�

Consider the following from a Christian web site at http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/302/:

“Another of the key prophecies in Jeremiah has to do with the destruction of Babylon.

“It is important to distinguish between the destruction of Babylon prophesied here and the fall of Babylon to the Persians in 539 B.C.

“When Cyrus conquered Babylon, it was without a battle: it wasn't destroyed. (Many Biblical helps are in error here.) It became Cyrus' secondary capital.

“Two centuries later, when Alexander conquered the Persians, he made it his capital. He died there. It gradually atrophied over the centuries, displaced by alternative caravan routes, etc. As late as the 19th century, when Koldewey, the archaeologist, excavated the ruins, he was able to hire locals still living there.

“The destruction of Babylon prophesied by Jeremiah has never happened (yet). Both Jeremiah and Isaiah describe a destruction after which it is "never to be inhabited"; the building materials will never be reused, etc. It is to be destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah. This has never happened. So far.�

Consider the following from a Christian web site at http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/fp_main.html:

“The key that Isaiah chapter 13 is a dual prophecy lies in Isaiah 13:20, which reveals that Babylon will ultimately be destroyed to a point of being uninhabitable. Naturally, this never took place in 539 BC. In fact, Arabians have been pitching tents in Babylon for the past 2700 years.�

Obviously, Lee Merrill does not have any idea whatsoever what he is talking about.

lee_merrill

I think this actually doesn't affect my arguments!

Well, I addressed this point, any geography in Revelation concerning Babylon seems to be pointing to the city of Rome (Rev. 17:9). You need to address my response, and not restate the question!

Then he continues...

Well this is surprising. Which old maps? He says he took pictures, why not post those pictures? Searching for Querish turned up only this article in reference to this village, surely if this was proof of Babylon being rebuilt, there would be some mention of this village somewhere else, given the fervor with which these authors are addressing themselves to this topic.

This is the conclusion, where would the evidence be, though?

It's rather astonishing that we have records of Arabs pitching tents there for 2700 years! And that these other web pages didn't seem to know of this. It seems this claim is overstated, I think it may be wrong. Saying "in fact" does not establish a fact! And just posting a web page doesn't make a statement true, can we do better than this? You were the one asking for recognized authorities, Johnny...

Regards,
Lee

Johnny Skeptic

What is not astonishing at all is that you as the claimant have never produced any evidence at all that Arabs have never pitched their tents in Babylon. Why don't you contact the source and ask them to produce evidence that backs up their claim? You are well-known for demanding evidence from other people, but refusing to produce evidence of your own. This is simply dishonest.

Yes, I do like to ask for recognized authorities, and you as the claimant have never produced even one single recognized authority who agrees with you that it would be of significant value to skeptics and Muslims if Babylon were to be rebuilt, or if Arabs were to pitch their tents in Babylon, although I can easily produce two recognized FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN authorities who disagree with you if you will agree to concede defeat if I do. If you agree to my terms, I will contact Wheaton College and Dallas Theological Seminary. How about it, Lee? I enjoy conducting this kind of research. I have found out from personal experience that the best way to defeat fundamentalist Christians in debates is to use exclusively fundamentalist Christian expert sources, but you would never use exclusively skeptic expert sources to defeat skeptics regarding the Babylon prophecy, and probably any other prophecy.

As you wish. Consider the following from a Christian web site at http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/end...Jerusalem.htm:

There is no question but that Babylon was Satan’s choice of a capital and palace. When Satan was cast out of Eden and Heaven, he set up his kingdom in the mid-air between earth and Heaven so he could constantly challenge everything that represents God and His world. Satan has never been stripped of his angelic powers so he can presently move in both directions. The best way I can describe Satan’s present authority is to say that he is out on bail. The victory of his defeat was settled at the cross and the tomb, but the charges are still pending on appeal. As saints, we are gathering evidence for the trial, and our witness against him must await our resurrection from the dead or by the Rapture. No wonder he hates the truth of the Pre-tribulation Rapture, because we will then become God’s Heavenly elders with authority to assist the Throne of God in final judgment. I tell you that I’m sitting on “ready� for that day.

In the meantime, Satan’s seat is in Babylon and the consort city of Mystery Babylon. The reason that the ancient city of Babylon has laid in ruins for centuries is because of Satan’s trickery. He moved his headquarters to Rome to hide himself behind the religious garb of an imitation pageantry of the false. We’ll further discuss this deception after we understand the ancient city.

The rebuilding of Babylon has been an effort of man to bring order out of chaos. In fact, the entire effort in Iraq to bring peace has been similar. It is happening, but only at great cost to human lives. At God’s timing, an uneasy peace will settle over the area to allow prophecy to be fulfilled. The sad truth is that the population of Iraq is like a pawn in the hands of eternal powers, and their suffering must touch our heartstrings. The ancient city will be rebuilt, but probably the major activities will only occur between the Rapture and the actual beginning of the seven years of the Great Tribulation. Prophetic events do not occur by human design. God is in control. Revelation makes it plain that this city will become the center of the Antichrist kingdom. While his political center will be Babylon, his religious center led by his “false prophet� or, as I call him, his “false spirit� or “false anointing,� will be “Mystery Babylon� or Rome.

Babylon already has a palace for the Antichrist to make his “living quarters.� I believe that Saddam Hussein built this for the Antichrist without knowing the significance. At the present time, the entire complex is a military zone and that itself will demand a multi-nation effort to finish rebuilding the city. Watch the news for such an announcement. Babylon has got to become a great city again. The announcement in prophecy of its judgment demands its glory first. The Word of God said, “And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more.� (Revelation 18:2-3, 10-11)

Between 300-600 A.D., while Babylon began its descent, Rome began its rise to become Mystery Babylon. It’s amazing to study the date that Babylon was forsaken and forgotten and Rome was becoming the center of Babylonian pageantry. This has got to be the picture of Satan’s greatest historical accomplishment. Every pagan religion had its inception in Babylon. All the male gods or female goddesses can be traced to Babylon and the effort to replace the God of creation and holiness. Inanna became Isis, Ishtar, Ashtoreth, etc., and the American version, Gaia, the goddess of the earth. Babylon is the seat of Lucifer on earth, but Rome is his clever reproduction under a false name to deceive the world.

Everything that makes the Roman Catholic system unique, from her doctrines to her costumes, and on to all her pageantry, is Babylonian in essence. I have pictures of the mother goddess figurines dating back five thousand years from the museum in Baghdad. The entire idea of Mary, the mother of God, and the worship and prayers offered to her, plus her promise of protection and good luck charm, comes straight out of the pagan religion of Babylon. Anyone that prays to Mary, worships Mary, or visits her deceptive apparitions, is actually worshipping devils in disguise. Not one aspect of the Catholic doctrine concerning Mary comes from the Word of God. Look at the staff that was carried prominently by Pope John Paul II and see the crooked cross with an emaciated Christ, appearing more like a defeated specter instead of a victorious redeemer. That’s the Jesus that needed a co-redemptrix in his mother just like Nimrod of Babylon. Study the fourteen stations of the so-called Via Dolorosa path to the cross and you find much superstition instead of redemption. One station says he photographed his image onto a vial around the neck of a woman worshipper who offered Him water to drink. The story of the “Passion� film had Mary gathering His blood, hair, and pieces of flesh so she could penetrate His tomb with angels, prepare the body back to its original state, and help Jesus be resurrected. All of this is pagan, not Christian.

Rome now claims to be the “eternal city,� but all of this is preposterous. I’m not sure when the claim of calling Rome the eternal city started, but the process certainly began seventeen hundred years ago. This will be part of the reason that the Antichrist will burn Rome to the ground. When the height of the Antichrist kingdom has spread to the world, he will have made Babylon his capital. The Catholic Church and the pope will be furious when Babylon once again becomes the seat of Satan, acting like God, and he calls Babylon the center of his world. The furor will be so hot that the Antichrist will have Rome torched and put out of business. There is no question that the pope and his kingdom of Catholicism truly believes that they are chosen of God. The truth will register only after the fire is lit and Rome goes up in smoke. The Great God is sick of this sham, and He will soon put it in the heart of the false christ to judge her for himself.

Sauron

You think wrong. It *does* address your argument.

One could say the same thing back to you. You've continually re-stated your silly challenge, and failed to address the reasons why it doesn't work. Shall we go over the reasons again? And remember: you need to address my response, and not merely restate your position:

1. The Babylon prophecy has already failed on at least six other areas;
2. Babylon was rebuilt - twice, in fact, by Alexander and Saddam;
3. You cannot provide any evidence that christians would give up their religion if babylon were built - thus providing no reason for skeptics to take your challenge seriously;
4. There is no such thing as undeniable proof when dealing with fundamentalists - because they will always find a way to deny it -- just as you have done, when presented with photographic evidence of the failure of this prophecy.

Apparently lee_merrill is upset that someone -- a *christian*, even -- has savagely undermined his budding industry of homemade prophecy excuses.

Lee, we have no reason to believe that this person isn't telling the truth. You rarely if ever post your sources. Your posts are often entirely composed of one claim after another. Given all that, it's extremely hypocritical of you to insist that this other christian post his info all over the internet. Besides, this was first reported in 1975, decades before the internet and digital cameras. It's unrealistic to expect photos to accompany an article that is 30 years old.

The fact that you can't find something doesn't mean that it's not out there, Lee. You haven't exactly proven yourself to be a good researcher, especially when the item you're looking for would work against your argument. The fact that lee_merrill can't google something up on the internet means nothing in this debate.

Trying to shift the burden of proof again? Here are the facts:

1. You are the one that claimed the Babylon prophecy is a success.

2. That prophecy includes the part about the destruction being like "Sodom and Gomorrah".

3. It is up to you to support the affirmative claim that this has happened.

No, it isn't at all. Many caravan routes have been around for centuries, and are mentioned in ancient documents as well as more modern ones. There is no basis to reject this statement merely on the fact that you find it inconvenient.

1. There is no evidence that this is overstated or wrong; waving your hands and assuming it will simply not suffice;

2. The fact that "these other web pages" (whatever that means) did not know about it proves nothing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence;

3. In addition, your research skills are not exactly first rate; we've had opportunity to see you make huge blunders already in this area. So no conclusions can be drawn simply because lee_merrill can't google something up on the internet;

No, friends, it seems that lee_merrill is just guessing, and by doing so he hopes to get out of doing any hard research work or investigation of this new information. That hasn't worked the 500 times he tried it earlier; I wonder why he thought it would work this time?

My, my, my. What an interesting standard of proof lee_merrill asks of others -- yet he does not hold himself to that same standard.

Lee, you apparently think we should just take your claims at face value -- even though "just saying in fact" doesn't make it true -- even though that principle applies to you as well. And we've asked several times for you to "do better than this" when presenting your arguments - yet you fail to do so.

If we have to deal with the low quality and poor substantiation of your arguments, I don't see where we have any reason to exclude this other christian's claims. On the surface, he appears to be a reasonable and honest person -- and in those two respects, he is several points ahead of you in this debate.

I'm glad you brought that up, lee. Yes, Johnny did ask for that. And as I recall, you failed to provide any. Care to explain?

Johnny Skeptic

This is quite amusing. It is an argument from silence, a kind of argument that fundamentalist Christians frequently accuse skeptics of using. Regarding the claims of the plagues in Egypt and the parting of the Red Sea, the events, if true, would have been witnessed by hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, a number of eyewitnesses to miracles without prior precedent or subsequent duplication in the entire Bible, and yet there is not even one single external record of the claims, even though the texts themselves claim that the Philistines knew about the events. I would like for Lee Merrill to explain why no copies records of the supposed events exist today.

Regarding Paul's uncorroborated claim of the 500 eyewitnesses, the Gospel writers imply only a couple of dozen eyewitnesses. If the claim was true, surely they would have known about it, and surely at least one Gospel writer would have mentioned it. All four Gospels mention the empty tomb, and one Gospel, Matthew, mentions the guards who were at the tomb. If one assumes that Jesus actually died, surely 500 eyewitnesses is of much greater value than an empty tomb or guards at the tomb.

I will bet that Lee has objected to skeptics using arguments from silence. If I am right, then he is a hypocrit. He has a lot of explaining to do. Don't count on Lee contacting the Christian soucrce that I quoted.

I will soon bring these debates to a conclusion. Within a few days I will contact Wheaton College and Dallas Theological Seminary, two schools that Lee said that he admires. I will ask them the following question: Reference Isaiah 13:20, if Babylon were to be rebuilt, or if Arabs were to pitch their tents in Babylon, would a sizeable percentage of Christians give up Christianity? I challenge Lee to contact the U.S. State Department and ask them the following question: Reference Isaiah 13:20, if Babylon were to be rebuilt, or if Arabs were to pitch their tents in Babylon, would U.S. foreign policy towards Muslims become more favorable? Anyone who knows about Lee is well aware that he will not accept my challenge. He would not dare to subject himself to further embarrassment by contacting the U.S. State Department. Making uncorroborated assertions is his modus operandi. It is obvious that Lee is completely unaware that no reader will agree with anything that he says unless he provides corroboration from expert sources.

Sauron

Just bumping this to make sure that lee_merrill can find it easily. :wave: