Sheshonq

You are confused again. Most christians are, when it comes to this topic. they are so indoctrinated into their own belief system that they don't realize that they cannot expect others to share the same point of view.

Nobody here has to prove anything about prophecy. Only those who make claims about prophecy have any burden of proof.

If I claim that I saw Elvis Presley last night riding on a UFO, it's not your job to disprove that claim. No, it would be my job to gather together the evidence in favor of it, and try to prove it to you. Why? Because I am the one making the claim. If I want people to believe what I'm saying, then I had better come prepared with some evidence. And I had better get ready to answer some tough questions.

That is where christians in general -- and where you & sugarhitman in particular -- fail miserably.

The audience doesn't have to prove you wrong; you need to prove yourself RIGHT. The audience bears no burden whatsoever.

arnoldo

Despite all atemps by hostile Arab nations to kick out the Jews, this has not happened, regardless of any prophecy. The Jews belong in Israel, whether or not you disagree with that is irelvenat.

Sheshonq

Well, actually the Arabs did drive the Israelis back in the 1973 war.

1. Again: "claim" is not the same thing as "prove". Your opinion is worthless. Only what you can prove matters.

2. Nobody "belongs" on stolen land.

arnoldo

It's not stolen, by your own admission the United Nations gave the land to Israel, thus it is legal and is recognized by practically all nations on earth. How can the land be stolen when Jews have lived on the land for thousands of years. Sorry, your arguments are silly, I guess the United States "stole" the land from the Indians and all Anglos should go back to Europe, right? Ridiculous. . .

Sheshonq

1. It is stolen.
2. I never said that the UN gave it to Israel.

3. Many things that hte UN have done aren't "legal" or ethical.

4. It is not recognized by "practically all nations" - not that it would matter anyhow; two centuries ago human slavery was recognized by "practically all nations" - yet it was still wrong.

1. Precisely because they have NOT lived on it for thousands of years.

2. And when the Jews arrived, they forced people out by military means.

No, my arguments are well-informed, coming from having studied this matter for almost 25 years.

1. The US did steal the land from the Indians.

2. It's a little late for the whites to go back to Europe. That does not mean that some kind of settlement should not be reached. The current arrangement - with whites getting the best land, breaking treaties with Indians, and failing to pay for using Indian lands - is just another kind of theft.

3. Which is precisely what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

arnoldo

If it's stolen, won in war, or given by the UN it makes no difference. Since in your opinion there is no god then it's simply survival of the fittest and in this case the jews are the fittest. On which philisophy do you base your so called "morality?" Why would anyone else agree to your version of what is right or wrong? Your arguments are not valid.

Sheshonq

Sure it does.

In the first place, it seems you are abandoning your argument whenever you can't support it.

In the second place, you still need to prove that the current state of Israel is somehow a fulfillment of prophecy.

In the third place, it makes a difference because if the land was stolen, then that is a moral failure - are you saying that God accomplishes his goals by theft?

Don't presume to know my opinion about god(s).

1. Survival of the fittest has nothing to do with military affairs. It's a term from evolutionary biology, which you also know zero about.

2. Considering the fact that the Jews most probably could not have won without all the outside support they received, they are hardly the fittest.


You really do seem to have a problem with staying focused on the topic, don't you?

1. My philosophy is irrelevant to the question of Israel and fulfilled prophecy.

2. My arguments ARE valid - which is why we see you giving up and abandoning your own arguments, when you are confronted with mine.

spin

I love how a supposedly moral person can blindly support terrorism, genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid as means of a prophecy being fulfilled.

Look at this gem:

If it's stolen, won in war, or given by the UN it makes no difference. Since in your opinion there is no god then it's simply survival of the fittest and in this case the jews are the fittest. On which philisophy do you base your so called "morality?" Why would anyone else agree to your version of what is right or wrong? Your arguments are not valid.

The notion of morals and ethics is actually a problem for a religious believe, who by necessity has no morals or ethics, but slavishly do what they are told by what they believe to be some entity vastly superior to themselves. This is an exercise in submission to mental slavery and abnegation of any moral responsibility, making it possible to justify acts of terrorism, genocide, etc., because, well, god says it's ok.

A christian, as a christian, has no understanding of morals or ethics. That's why the only thing outside their narrow niche is "survival of the fittest", despite the fact that they advocate a notion which is equivalent, as the people with the omnipotent god on their side are of course the fittest.

To understand the notion of ethics and morality, one has to have a perspective outside christianity.

(This is not to say that christians can have morals, despite their christianity. That's why, for example, some American christians opposed slavery.)


spin

arnoldo

Since you have a perspective outside of christianity please describe your notion of ethics and morality in general terms. You must have some basis for your opinion that the Jews don't belong in Israel, right? Or is it just your "gut" feeling?

arnoldo

I suppose in your revisionist history textbook the Jewish people never suffered from terrorism, genocide, or ethnic cleansing. Also you have absolutely no evidence that the Jews have ever attempted to "ethinicaly cleanse" the Palestinians since there return to Israel. Your claims are outrageous and lies.