Amaleq13

I reversed the numbers but the point is still valid. You claimed that the predicted economic collapse did not have to be permanent:

Quote:

The words used by the Revelation: „no one buys their cargoes any more” are at present and give the posibility that situation can change in the future.

Revelation 18:21, however, clearly predicts that the destruction would be total and permanent.

Your original claim was about the total duration so any alleged confusion about the timing of specific events within that time frame is irrelevant. Your original claim that the destruction took "exactly" an hour has been shown to be false:

How much time was passed from the first airplane impact to the final collapse? The time was exactly one hour. This is not only a miraculous coincidence, that is a fact.

As we have seen, it is neither a "miraculous coincidence" nor a "fact".

I will consider the above retreat from your original claim to be an indication that you are aware that claim has been shown to be false. The fact that the actual duration of the destruction of 9/11 is nearly double the allegedly predicted duration certainly does warrant ignoring your claim of fulfillment. This is especially true given that every other "point" you have offered has been similarly revealed to lack substance.

I'm going to have to give you two errors in this one. The first is the fact that neither tower was cast into the sea. The second is the fact that the towers did not collapse "with the same speed". The north tower took about an hour and forty-five minutes while the south tower took about an hour.

Except for the general fact that destruction was involved, your "predictions" have been entirely inaccurate.

Kattaz

Ok Amaleq13, I heva impression that you talk without understand me. I try to explain again what I want to say:
Revelation 18:21 „Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.” There is about Babylon fall, collapse, OK?
Revelation 18:11 „The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more„ Please remark that merchants survive Babylon collapse, so the prophecy of 18:21 doesn’t apply to they. In addition, this economic effects, and merchant future, is different from future of Babylon who is no more.
I don’t retreat from my original claim, there are two elements that I indicated: 1) We don’t know exactly what was the real time of collapse; 2) A hour in time of John was different that a hour in our time. Anyway, if I want to be more specific, and give other argument, I could say it was a hour of collapse, because first hour was complete, and second incomplete. We have here only a complete hour and some additional time.
Now let’s back to Revelation 18:21 and see what is the speed of collapse. From the moment which each tower begin to fall to moment which arrive to the ground was only some seconds. Revelation verse doesn’t want to say that tower will fall in the sea; there is a comparation between speed of a milestone who sink in the sea and the speed of Babylon fall. There is also evidence that in moment of fall of each tower, there was a earthquake that helped this collapse, this crumbling, to be very fast, like a milestone in the sea.

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/bollyn2.htm
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/shake.html

Koyaanisqatsi

Are you aware that both of those sites are implying that there were explosions (i.e., bombs) in the basements of the buildings, presumably designed to facillitate the collapsing of the towers and not an earthquake?

As for John not knowing what an hour was, how then did he know what a "half hour" was? And could you perhaps explain how a person who is having a vision would know that there was silence in heaven for a half hour, unless the vision itself went on for that half hour of silence for him to measure it?

From impact to collapse of both towers took a total of one hour and fourty five minutes, give or take a few minutes. If John knows what a half hour is, then why didn't he say it would take an hour and a half and then half again, or some such thing, to make an accurate prediction?

Isn't the whole point of prophesy that it be accurate?

Never to be found again. Ok? The "city of Babylon" that shall be "thrown down, never to be found again," could not, therefore, possibly be New York City as I am currently typing this while sitting down off Union Square, nor could it possibly be the "fortress" of Babylon, since the WTC was not any kind of "fortress." The word is "city" and it meant then exactly what it means today.

Read the "prophecy" again. The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn because no one buys the city of Babylon's cargoes any more. Why? Because the city has been destroyed, never to be found again.

Neither of these things happened.

Yes, you do. You stated, categorically and unequivocably:

The time from first airplane impact to final collapse was one hour and fourty five minutes, give or take a few minutes (one, to be precise). It was not "exactly one hour," therefore it is not a "miraculous coincidence" of any kind.

We know it within a minute's variation, which makes sense, because no one was timing the very last bit of debris to finally hit.

Really? So what is a "half hour" in John's time?

This is just disengenuous nonsense. We have at least one hour and fourty five minutes from impact to final collapse, but that is completely irrelevant, since John was talking about the city of Babylon, not a skyscraper in New York. Period.

Better yet, let's go back to 18:4 in detail and deconstruct, since you apparently didn't get it from theophage (emphasis mine):

Although there was death and certainly mourning, no famines and the city was not "consumed by fire."

"O great city, O Babylon, city of power," in one hour your doom has come. The city is to be destroyed in one hour. While we were certainly devastated for several days, we were not destroyed in an hour.

All still being exported to this day.

To the best of my knowledge, New York doesn't export "myrrh and frankincense," but I could be wrong and I'm fairly certain ivory has been banned (unless it's antique, which is still going strong), but I know to an absolute certainty that no cattle or sheep or horses and carriages and certainly not slaves or "souls" are being exported from NYC and haven't been for at least a hundred and fifty years.

Never to be recovered. False.

I've been living in Manhattan for almost fifteen years now and I can assure you that at no time was it ever "glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls," unless you're talking about the people on the Upper East side, about eight miles away from the attack and still glittering.

Indeed, two days after the attack and it was already business as usual.

How sailors at sea threw "dust" on their heads is beyond me, but again, this didn't happen. There were certainly some boats in the water at the time, but as soon as the second tower was hit, all boats were ordered to dock.

No angel appeared and no millstone was thrown into the sea.

I heard some the other night at Lincoln center.

There were thousands of workman on the site and remain here to this day.

Millstones haven't been "heard" in New York (except, perhaps, in various bakeries) for generations.

I count twenty four just outside my window.
I was just at a friend's wedding two months ago.

Well, that I can't argue with, since the many that did die were a part of us as we were a part of them, but the city remains just as vibrant and just as "astray" as it's always been, though the puritans have definitely come in to profit.

Again, the sites you listed don't suggest an earthquake; they suggest bombs deliberately planted. Regardless, where does the earthquake thing come from? I must have missed it in Revelation 17-18.

So, now you can plainly and clearly see that Revelation had nothing to do with the WTC attack.

Though I certainly agree that Bush is the anti-christ.

Amaleq13

Oh, I understand you just fine. You are confusing disbelief with misunderstanding. I understand that there is absolutely no basis for your claim that the destruction of 9-11 should be considered a fulfillment of the Revelation prophecy of the destruction of Babylon.

Koy has done a fine job of revealing the numerous flaws in your claims and I don't see any need to add more. Except, perhaps, to dispute his claim that GW is the antichrist since I would hope the antichrist would be smart enough to read a book.

chapka

Off the top of my head, I'll bet I can think of at least five historical events that fit this pattern better than the September 11 attacks:

1. The storming of the Bastille
2. The 1917 Revolution in Russia
(note: both included truly global trade implications and rejections of the traditional economic order)
3. The burning of the Savoy Palace in the Peasants' Revolt
4. The Allied firebombing of Dresden
5. The sack of Constantinople and subsequent disruption of the Silk Road (12th century? don't remember)

Why is your interpretation better than any of these?

chapka

...some of us DO know how long it took for the Towers to fall, because we saw it happen. So if you're going to try to exploit a very bad thing that happened to some of us in order to convince us all to become idiots and unlearn how to read, please show a little bit of fucking respect and don't smiley up your posts like it's fucking Christmas.

I was luckier than many, in that my friends who worked near the WTC got out alive and unhurt, and I only lost casual acquaintances who worked in the towers. But your implication that God did this as a punishment or warning is still disgusting. The people who did this did it because they were dumb enough to believe in fundamentalist religion.

Think carefully about this next question. If you honestly believed that your god wanted you to be the vessel to kill 3,000 people, as he apparently wanted to happen in New York...would you do it?

Koyaanisqatsi

No, "bombs placed at basement of buildings" is conspiracy theory fodder. The alleged spikes in the seismograph could very easily be explained by the shudders in the buildings' superstructures and/or the result of the buildings collapsing. Regardless, of what relevance would earthquakes be? Nowhere (that I could find) does John mention anything about earthquakes while the city of Babylon is being destroyed.

So that you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean?

Which, to us would therefore mean 2 hours, which, again, means that the "prophesy" was not fulfilled.

In other words, it means whatever you want it to mean.

Yes, you have, repeatedly. You're doing it again now.

First you said "exactly one hour." We then pointed out it took an hour and fourty five minutes from impact to final collapse. So you change your original claim and say that you meant from one collapse to another (or whatever the hell you said next). We then pointed out that your original claim was from impact to final collapse. So you change your original claim again with this irrelevancy, that one hour to John really meant two hours, or near enough to what actually happened to be significant.

False. The "World Trade Center" was a collection of several buildings so named, not just the two towers. That has never changed and will not change when the new towers are built on the same spot. The only things that will "never be found again" are the original designs of the buildings and the three thousand plus victims.

No, I don't, but then why would sanity be any part of this nonsense?

The issue is about the alleged prophecy and that prophecy has nothing to do with the two towers being attacked. Nothing. Not one thing listed in Revelation has anything to do with what happened here in New York as I and others have proven conclusively to you repeatedly, the last time by showing you step-by-step how John could not have possibly be seeing a vision of the towers being hit.

It is simply impossible to make that connection, yet you keep responding like a child who says, "Nu unh! Nu unh!" This will, therefore, be my last response to your posts in this thread.

Perhaps it's just the language barrier, but I have no idea what you're talking about and I don't mean that in any way that you can misinterpret as your having special knowledge that I just can't "see." You are spouting incoherent drivel, but I tell you what. If you wish to believe that the twin towers were like a city of whores and charlatans by the sea and that the innocent people within who died by the cowardice acts of depraved fundamentalist lunatics, who no doubt held similar delusions about their own gods that caused them to behave in similar fashion in regard to human life, then I suggest you come on over here to America and knock on every family and friend's door who lost a loved one in that attack and you tell them to their faces your little interpretation of "God's justice."

Ok? You be my guest.

I was here when those fuckers took out those people and lost a friend myself from College. There was no angel of any god throwing anything into the sea and there are no 72 virgins tending the cowards who did it in any heaven. You know what there was? Men murdering innocent people, just like there have been for thousands and thousands of years.

If you can't sleep at night without thinking that only a god is capable of such suffering and that it is, in turn, part of some mysterious grand and glorious "plan" involving genocidal "endtime events," then you have my pity.

Kattaz

Conchobar, I’m not a muslim, I’m a christian (orthodox). I didn’t know you are from Ireland, your location mean nothing to me. If my location sound like „Buzau”, and you don’t know where I’m from, that not mean you are ignorant. But if you don’t care about others (middle east), then God will care not about you; that justice, OK?

Koyaanisqatsi, I wasn’t clear? „they divide the day in twelve parts, each one corresponding one hour. Because the daylight is not constant, the hour have a different duration” It’s obviously that I refer to DAYLIGHT not day with night! I suggest you to go to Afganistan and talk with people, have you the courage? Don’t tell me they are fundamentalist, they look you like a friend in time of war with Soviet Union. If the events of 11 september wasn’t in the mourning, the loses should be even greater; and if fireworkers and policemen was not send by your authorities in the building, they don’t die. The terrorists was killed not even 1000 people, the other was killed by american authorities who send them in aid of few important people. That I will say to a relative of a victim.

The argument number five is the connection between WTC and merchants and all who earn their living from the sea:
Owners: Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc.php
Revelation 18:3 „... and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries”
Revelation 18:19 „... where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth!”

Jack the Bodiless

Date of the WTC attack: September 11th.

Date of the Autumnal Equinox: September 21st.

Look up the word "equinox". It's the time when day and night are of equal length (12 hours) all over the world.

So, on September 11th 2001, the day and night were almost exactly 12 hours long.

Asha'man

<checks astronomy calculator>

well, almost. It was 12 hours and 39 minutes. Sunrise at 5:33 and sunset at 6:12 (for NYC). Which would put 1/12 of daylight at 1 hour 3 1/4 minutes.

1:03 is a long way from 1:45, no matter how you slice it.

Can we say grasping at straws?