Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-21-2013, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Fox is saying that Constantine's identification of this dove with the dove in the Noah's ark story is unique.

Well then Fox is uninformed. From Tertullian On Baptism:

Quote:

At this point that most holy Spirit willingly comes down from the Father upon bodies cleansed and blessed, and comes to rest upon the waters of baptism as though revisiting his primal dwelling-place. He came down upon our Lord in the form of a dove, and thus the nature of the Holy Spirit was clearly revealed in a creature of simplicity and innocence, since even physically the dove is without gall: which is why he says, Be ye simple, like doves.3 And this too has the support of a type which had preceded: for as, after those waters of the Flood, by which the ancient iniquity was cleansed away, after the baptism (so to express it) of the world, a dove as herald announced to the earth peace from the wrath of heaven, having been sent forth of the ark and having returned with an olive-leaf4 - and towards the heathen too this is held out as a sign of peace - by the same <divine> ordinance of spiritual effectiveness the dove who is the Holy Spirit is sent forth from heaven, where the Church is which is the type of the ark, and flies down bringing God's peace to the earth which is our flesh, as it comes up from the washing after <the removal of> its ancient sins. 'But', <you object,> 'the world sinned once more, so that this equating of baptism with the flood is not valid.' <The world sinned>, and so is appointed for the fire, as also a man is when he renews his sins after baptism: so that this also needs to be accepted as a sign and a warning to us.

outhouse · 02-21-2013, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But what kind of reference is that? To have a meaningful discussion you can't just pick something out of a Sears catalog. Please provide a substantial reference.

First, were talking about Hellenized authors, more so then Jewish authors.

All im asking as my first post indicated, you may want to seek out Hellenized sources. When we do we see the dove is a sign of divinity.

When we look at the context of the dove in realationship to the NT, it speaks of divinity as well.

Because it exist in literature, doesnt mean it had to come from a previous source. Imagination was used and all we can really do is guess at the source in some cases. In this case the dove as a sign of divinity is obvious, if you want to read more out of it please share, there could be a little more. I just personaly doubt it.

stephan huller · 02-21-2013, 02:17 PM

Please point to something specific. A reference, an idea, an author ancient or modern.

outhouse · 02-21-2013, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Please point to something specific. A reference, an idea, an author ancient or modern.

I already did that Stephan.

And I pointed out hat refferences are not always required.

Dove for two different groups equals divinity.

Hellenistic people
Hellenistic Proselytes following Christianity

Do you want to add Romans and Greeks too? because they also followed this idea of mythology.

outhouse · 02-21-2013, 02:29 PM

Your taking a molehill, claiming it needs rope and a ladder and a guide and oxygen tanks.

Its rather simple, and need not be overthought.

stephan huller · 02-21-2013, 02:31 PM

What is the idea? I don't get it.

Chili · 02-21-2013, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Where did this strange idea come from? ...... The point is that no one can seriously believe that there was an eyewitness to the dove coming down. So the idea must have developed from something in scripture. But what?

AFAIK the idea was developed by the Emperor Constantine and was first expressed in his monumental "Oration to the Saints of the East" at his military operated Council of Antioch. See Robin Lane Fox's "Pagans and Christians" (or via: amazon.co.uk) p.646/7. Most ancient historians are today convinced that Constantine both authored and read aloud this "document". It contains a number of novel social and political insights, and a whole string of fraudulent misprepresentations. Among the novelties we find this ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOX

"A dove, said Constantine, had alighted on the virgin mary,
like the dove which had flown from Noah's ark.

Different dove.

Joseph is equal to Noah, and the dove that delivered a branch to Noah with the promise of New Life ahead, is the prompt that Mary needed to start the Journey to Bethlehem with Mary in charge as seated on the donkey [as the beyond theology animal man] with Joseph depicted as much as 'dragging his ass' behind it (like a played-out pike, we can say).

Mary presides over the TOL and is the queen of angels on that account, but this dove here was Gabriel as send first cause from God and is prior to Mary.

Toto · 02-21-2013, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Fox is saying that Constantine's identification of this dove with the dove in the Noah's ark story is unique.

Well then Fox is uninformed. From Tertullian On Baptism:

Quote:

At this point that most holy Spirit willingly comes down from the Father upon bodies cleansed and blessed, and comes to rest upon the waters of baptism as though revisiting his primal dwelling-place. He came down upon our Lord in the form of a dove, and thus the nature of the Holy Spirit was clearly revealed in a creature of simplicity and innocence, since even physically the dove is without gall: which is why he says, Be ye simple, like doves.3 And this too has the support of a type which had preceded: for as, after those waters of the Flood, by which the ancient iniquity was cleansed away, after the baptism (so to express it) of the world, a dove as herald announced to the earth peace from the wrath of heaven, having been sent forth of the ark and having returned with an olive-leaf4 - and towards the heathen too this is held out as a sign of peace - by the same <divine> ordinance of spiritual effectiveness the dove who is the Holy Spirit is sent forth from heaven, where the Church is which is the type of the ark, and flies down bringing God's peace to the earth which is our flesh, as it comes up from the washing after <the removal of> its ancient sins. 'But', <you object,> 'the world sinned once more, so that this equating of baptism with the flood is not valid.' <The world sinned>, and so is appointed for the fire, as also a man is when he renews his sins after baptism: so that this also needs to be accepted as a sign and a warning to us.

Maybe that isn't what Fox meant - I couldn't see the entire quote. But it doesn't appear that he meant that the dove imagery was invented by Constantine.

Vorkosigan · 02-21-2013, 04:51 PM

The Marcosians and perhaps certain other gnostic groups saw the "dove" here as representing "God." In Jewish alphabetical numerology, the Greek letters for 'dove' total 801, same as for "alpha" (1) plus "omega" (800) (Ehrman 1996, p142).

v10: Another possible source (Hoskyns and Davey, 1931) is Psalm 91:4

He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge (NIV)

Another thought is that Mark was merely speaking metaphorically, comparing the descent of the spirit to that of a dove, and later ruminations are post hoc justifications.

Vorkosigan

mountainman · 02-21-2013, 05:31 PM

It's all post hoc justification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Maybe that isn't what Fox meant - I couldn't see the entire quote. But it doesn't appear that he meant that the dove imagery was invented by Constantine.

Here is a version of Constantine's Oration:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Constantine the Great ___

Enough, then, has been said to prove his priority of existence. But how do we explain his descent to this earth, and to men? His motive in this, as the prophets had foretold, originated in his watchful care for the interests of all: for it needs must be that the Creator should care for his own works.

But when the time came for him to assume a terrestrial body, and to sojourn on this earth, the need requiring, he devised for himself a new mode of birth. Conception was there, yet apart from marriage: childbirth, yet pure virginity: and a maiden became the mother of God! An eternal nature received a beginning of temporal existence: a sensible form of a spiritual essence, a material manifestation of incorporeal brightness, appeared.

Alike wondrous were the circumstances which attended this great event. A radiant dove, like that which flew from the ark of Noah, alighted on the Virgin's bosom: and accordant with this impalpable union, purer than chastity, more guileless than innocence itself, were the results which followed.

From infancy possessing the wisdom of God, received with reverential awe by the Jordan, in whose waters he was baptized, gifted with that royal unction, the spirit of universal intelligence; with knowledge and power to perform miracles, and to heal diseases beyond the reach of human art; he yielded a swift and unhindered assent to the prayers of men, to whose welfare, indeed, his whole life was devoted without reserve ....

etc etc etc

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02-21-2013, 02:17 PM	#23
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Please point to something specific. A reference, an idea, an author ancient or modern.

02-21-2013, 02:29 PM	#25
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	Your taking a molehill, claiming it needs rope and a ladder and a guide and oxygen tanks. Its rather simple, and need not be overthought.

02-21-2013, 02:31 PM	#26
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	What is the idea? I don't get it.

02-21-2013, 04:51 PM	#29
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	The Marcosians and perhaps certain other gnostic groups saw the "dove" here as representing "God." In Jewish alphabetical numerology, the Greek letters for 'dove' total 801, same as for "alpha" (1) plus "omega" (800) (Ehrman 1996, p142). v10: Another possible source (Hoskyns and Davey, 1931) is Psalm 91:4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge (NIV) Another thought is that Mark was merely speaking metaphorically, comparing the descent of the spirit to that of a dove, and later ruminations are post hoc justifications. Vorkosigan

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