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11-28-2011, 05:51 PM | #121 | ||
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Huh???????
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11-28-2011, 08:03 PM | #122 | |||
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If I understand you correctly you also argue that Irenaeus and Tertullian did not believe in a physical Jesus in the first century, but rather in a ghost being?
When did Christians then start to believe that the Christ was a physical person? Quote:
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11-28-2011, 08:09 PM | #123 | |
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I am learning now ...... but I'd like others to jump in on the discussion.
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11-28-2011, 11:12 PM | #124 | ||||
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Forget about me. Just READ the written EVIDENCE. 1. Justin's Jesus was NOT a Man of Men. "Dialogue with Trypho XLVIII]... Quote:
Please, I hope you stop asking me about Justin's Jesus. Justin's Jesus was FATHERED by a Ghost and was NOT a Man. 2. Irenaeus' Jesus was NOT a Man of Men. In "Against Heresies" 1 Carpocrates, Cerinthus and the Ebinites were IDENTIFIED as Heretics who claimed Jesus had a human father. "Against Heresies" 1 Quote:
I hope you will stop asking me questions about Irenaeus and READ what he claimed HERETICS believed. 3. Tertullian's Jesus was NOT a Man of Men. Tertullian will ANSWER you about the "Flesh of Christ". "On the Flesh of Christ" 18 Quote:
Tertullians's Jesus was of the SEED of the SPIRIT. Please READ "On the Flesh of Christ". The Jesus of Justin, Irenaeus and Tertullian was NOT a Man of Men but of the SPIRIT. A Man born of the seed of a SPIRIT is not a figure of history ONLY a Figure of THEOLOGY. I hope you don't ask me anymore questions. Please READ the writings ATTRIBUTED to Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and Tertullian. |
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11-29-2011, 05:11 AM | #125 |
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I do hope you noticed that in chapter 46 of his Apology Justin mentions that "Christ was born 150 years ago." All in all the language of his text sounds like he believed his Christ had been a living breathing physical being and not a celestial being or a ghost or a hologram.
And what do you say about the places where Tertullian DOES mention the name Jesus?? |
11-29-2011, 06:51 AM | #126 | ||
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"Dialogue with Trypho" XLVIII Quote:
Please READ the writings attributed to Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and Tertullian to find out who their Jesus was. Their Jesus Christ was a Figure of Theology, NOT a figure of history. |
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11-29-2011, 07:25 AM | #127 | |
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He would not have known those verses as "biblical." That would be anachronistic. However, it would also be anachronistic to assume that second-century Christians would have dismissed as unauthoritative any document not officially canonized by the church of Rome. We do not know whether Justin's sources were the gospels as we know them, or prototypes thereof. Even in the latter case, they must have portrayed Jesus in a way similar to what became the canonical portrayal. Whatever form those documents were in, from this historical distance we cannot know why Justin regarded them as authoritative. Apparently, though, he did so regard them, and he needed nothing else to convince him that Jesus was a man who had lived about a century before his own time. |
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11-29-2011, 07:45 AM | #128 |
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It would seem rather peculiar to argue that the reason Tatian did not mention the name Jesus was because he did not know of the Jesus figure when Tatian was a disciple of Justin who talks about Jesus all the time.
In fact I would go so far as to argue that the treatise to the Greeks was NOT written by a disciple of Justin at all, but by a Judeophile monotheist, and the treatise was ADOPTED as a Christian document ascribed to Tatian later. |
11-29-2011, 08:04 AM | #129 | ||
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That's a good point, Doug. But mysteriously Justin does not tell us in any detail who pursuaded him of his belief in a historical Jesus savior figure as opposed to a celestial non-human figure.
I would also grant the argument that a person whose father is God is not the same kind of "human" as someone whose father is a human being. However, it is clear to me that Justin did believe that Jesus was a physical being in the physical world. One would imagine that he would say that some elderly person he knew was acquainted in his own youth with people who had seen the historical Christ figure, since it was just over a century that the Jesus figure had ostensibly existed. Yet Justin never says a word about this. Even the reference to the man at the seashore is said in passing. I would prefer to say that Justin's Apology was written in the third or fourth century and backdated to the second if not for the fact that such an interpolater would not be able to resist making mention specifically of the gospel stories and epistles attributed to the beloved Paul. However, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that it was TAMPERED with later to give it a historical literal Jesus flavor, i.e. in chapters 13, 15, 16, 34 and 46. References to Isaiah are much more plentiful than references to "Christian" sources, which themselves are maxims of behavior rather than theological doctrine. As in the case of Tatian, I would like to make the suggestion that the writings of Athenagoras and Theophilus were not originally writings concerning Christianity at all, but were adopted by later Christians and given a Christian flavor as a literary or educational device as appropriate "Christian" arguments. Quote:
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11-29-2011, 08:25 AM | #130 | |||
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What sources mention Jesus Christ as a purely celestial non-human figure BEFORE Justin Martyr? Quote:
"Dialogue with Trypho" XLVIII Quote:
Hopelessly, Justin used so-called prophecies, predictions of the future, as evidence of the past. Justin had ZERO actual history of his Jesus from any non-apologetic sources. |
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