Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 01-07-2007, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

I believe he is referring to his own memory of the book.

That's correct.

Two further points related to this thread:

1) Masonic tradition and architecture.

Architecture, including the alignment of buildings and structures
in accordance to midwinter and midsummer, is rightfully to be
considered as a "dialogue" in the narration of history. There is
therefore good reason (for the historian at least) to be open
to the evolution of architectural traditions in the building of
structures in antiquity, some of which still stand.

2) Archons and the Persian cosmology.

Archons are mentioned (a fair bit) in Manichaeism. AFAIK,
the Book of Enoch sits in some kind of limbo between the
sets of old testament books and new testament "books",
unclaimed by either set.

DCHindley · 01-18-2007, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

Once again, there is no such word in Greek as "archons", even if "ch" = the Greek letter Chi. And to think that "archons" is an acceptable way of representing the plural form of the Greek word which is used of the beings you speak of above is not only to reveal that one who wants to speak authoritatively on matters Greek (not to mention matters biblical) has no Greek, but is to commit an egregious barbarism.

Please! The nominative plural of archOn/ARXWN/ARCWN (alpha rho chi omega nu) is archontai/ARXONTAI/ARCONTAI (alpha rho chi omicron nu tau alpha iota).

As to whether the word used for the heavenly beings (whether right, acute, obtuse, etc.) mentioned in Enoch is a form of the Greek word ARXWN, the answer is no. But that's not only because Enoch was not written in Greek. It's because the book has only come down to us in Ethiopic and Hebrew.

What you really want to ask is: is the Ethiopic or Hebrew word that is used in Enoch for the heavenly beings it mentions the Ethiopic/Hebrew equivalent to ARXWN or the word/words which the LXX translators of the Hebrew Bible translate with ARXWN.

If you are referring to the "Watchers" in Enoch, the answer is no.

JG

Hi Jeffrey,

What about the Greek fragments of 1 Enoch?

1 Enoch 6:3 kai eipen semiazas pros autous, os hn arcwn autwn
[codex Panopolitanus]
http://www.textexcavation.com/greek1enoch1-16.html

1 Enoch 6:3 And Semjaza, who was their leader, [Charles]
Bibleworks

Dave Hindley
Cleveland, OH USA

jgibson000 · 01-19-2007, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Hi Jeffrey,

What about the Greek fragments of 1 Enoch?

1 Enoch 6:3 kai eipen semiazas pros autous, os hn arcwn autwn
[codex Panopolitanus]
http://www.textexcavation.com/greek1enoch1-16.html

1 Enoch 6:3 And Semjaza, who was their leader, [Charles]
Bibleworks

Yep. Overlooked that.

But note, the noun is singular, not plural, and is being used in the sense of "chief" of a group. In other words, it is not a parallel to 1 Cor 2.

Jeffrey

DCHindley · 01-19-2007, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

Yep. Overlooked that.

But note, the noun is singular, not plural, and is being used in the sense of "chief" of a group. In other words, it is not a parallel to 1 Cor 2.

Jeffrey

Agreed.

I was just suggesting that a passage such as this is what plants the seed for the idea that the Watchers were somehow known as Archons, at least for those darn Gnostics.

Dave

jakejonesiv · 01-19-2007, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

Once again, there is no such word in Greek as "archons", even if "ch" = the Greek letter Chi. And to think that "archons" is an acceptable way of representing the plural form of the Greek word which is used of the beings you speak of above is not only to reveal that one who wants to speak authoritatively on matters Greek (not to mention matters biblical) has no Greek, but is to commit an egregious barbarism.

Please! The nominative plural of archOn/ARXWN/ARCWN (alpha rho chi omega nu) is archontai/ARXONTAI/ARCONTAI (alpha rho chi omicron nu tau alpha iota).

...
JG

Jeffrey,

Undoubtably you are correct. There is no such word in Greek as archon. Point taken.

I did notice that Malachi151 put quotes around "archon" which may indicate that the term was being used in a non-technical manner.

The Nag Hammadi Library edited by James M. Robinson uses archon on 78 different pages. Is that a different issue, or is it justifcation to use "archon" in certain circumstances?

You advice is appreciated.

Jake Jones

Malachi151 · 01-19-2007, 12:21 PM

Robert M. Price also uses archon. In fact, everyone I have seen discuss this issue uses the term archon...

jakejonesiv · 01-19-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Robert M. Price also uses archon. In fact, everyone I have seen discuss this issue uses the term archon...

I have noticed that too. It seems to me to be like arguing that "Jesus" is not a word in Greek. It is true, but why make it an issue? But I may be misssing something.

Jake Jones IV

jgibson000 · 01-19-2007, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Jeffrey,

Undoubtably you are correct. There is no such word in Greek as archon. Point taken.

Then you've taken the wrong point because it's something I most emphatically did not say. I said there is no such word as archons

Quote:

The Nag Hammadi Library edited by James M. Robinson uses archon on 78 different pages. Is that a different issue, or is it justifcation to use "archon" in certain circumstances?

You advice is appreciated.

It is perfectly permissable (as I already noted) when one is speaking of the nominative singular of the word in question since the nominative singular is spelled alpha rho chi omega nu. But is there not a line above the o in the word that Robinson uses as the transliteration of the Greek word?

Jeffrey

jgibson000 · 01-19-2007, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Robert M. Price also uses archon. In fact, everyone I have seen discuss this issue uses the term archon...

Of course they do -- when they are referring to one of these beasties or are transliterating the the nominative singular of the word in question. Why shouldn't they?

But the real question is: does "everyone you have seen" who discusses "the issue" use "archons" when speaking of more than one "archon"?

JG

jgibson000 · 01-19-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

I have noticed that too. It seems to me to be like arguing that "Jesus" is not a word in Greek. It is true, but why make it an issue? But I may be misssing something.

Yes, you are -- namely, that we are speaking of the fact that there is no Greek word that is spelled alpha rho chi omega nu sigma, as anyone who uses of "archons" as a transliteration of the plural of alpha rho chi omega nu claims there is, and that if anyone one thinks that "archons" is a good and/or accurate transliteration of anything Greek, let alone the nominative plural of ARXWN (i.e., ARXONTAI), then one has no idea of what one is talking about.

Jeffrey

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01-19-2007, 12:21 PM	#16
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Robert M. Price also uses archon. In fact, everyone I have seen discuss this issue uses the term archon...

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