Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JABcomix · 09-24-2009, 06:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

And then there is

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Another description of Jesus is found in "The Archko Volume" which contains official court documents from the days of Jesus. This information substantiates that He came from racial lines which had blue eyes and golden hair.

Aryan Jesus ?!?

If there is anything of value in that webpage, it would take more time that I have to find it.

You've never seen blue-eyed light hair Jews? They do exist you know.

show_no_mercy · 09-24-2009, 07:34 PM

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Originally Posted by JABcomix

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Originally Posted by Toto

Theoretically it was, but there is surviving Jewish art from the Hellenistic Jewish era, and there are representations of Jesus from later centuries.

Earl Doherty has discussed this, and we had a long discussion that is somewhere in the archives. There are no portraits, and no descriptions of Jesus that are not derived from the Hebrew Scriptures.

No, it's not Theoretically. This was the way things were back then. Also, the question is not whether people painted Jesus after he died. Did anybody paint Jesus when he was alive? No.

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Judaism strongly prohibits any form of idolatry, and holds that idolatry is not limited to the worship of a statue or picture itself, but also includes worship of the Almighty Himself with the use of mediators and/or any artistic representations of God such as "Jesus on the Cross". According to this understanding, even if one directs his worship to the Almighty Himself and not to a statue, picture, or some other created thing, but yet he uses a created thing as a representation of the Almighty in order to assist in his worship of the Almighty, this is also considered a form of idolatry. In fact, Maimonides explains in chapter 1 of Hilkhot Avodat Kokhavim (Avoda Zarah) in the Mishneh Torah that this is one of the ways that idolatry began.~Wikipedia

This paragraph assumes that all Christians thought Jesus was a god.

JABcomix · 09-24-2009, 07:47 PM

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Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

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Originally Posted by JABcomix

No, it's not Theoretically. This was the way things were back then. Also, the question is not whether people painted Jesus after he died. Did anybody paint Jesus when he was alive? No.

This paragraph assumes that all Christians thought Jesus was a god.

Well, if I could have found a better source of where it says that Judaism prohibits graven images or idolatry, I would have. I was simply trying to establish that as a fact. The paragraph unfortunately contained that part about Jesus. I'm sure a Jewish scholar can provide us with a better reference to this Jewish Law.

show_no_mercy · 09-24-2009, 07:52 PM

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Originally Posted by JABcomix

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Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

This paragraph assumes that all Christians thought Jesus was a god.

Well, if I could have found a better source of where it says that Judaism prohibits graven images or idolatry, I would have. I was simply trying to establish that as a fact. The paragraph unfortunately contained that part about Jesus. I'm sure a Jewish scholar can provide us with a better reference to this Jewish Law.

I know Judaism prohibits idolatry. I don't see the connection between that and pictures of Jesus. Unless you have a source that says there are to be no pictures of Jews at all (hint: not all ante-Nicea Christians thought Jesus was god).

Are there pictures/images of any venerated Jews from the 1st century?

ApostateAbe · 09-24-2009, 10:47 PM

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Originally Posted by everettf

I have seen paintings, sculptures and engravings that are dated to have been done over 2000 years ago. Was nobody an artist at the time of Jesus? You would think there should be some rendition of this Jesus if he really was that noticeable in his time. I guess, since I'm an atheist, I haven't given this much thought. Has anybody given this any thought?

Yes, sure. The mainstream theory on Jesus holds that he wasn't really that noticeable. He was just a traveling cult leader. He never actually performed miracles. He didn't gather that much attention, except from his zealous core group of followers. The prohibition against idolatry is also a good point.

JABcomix · 09-25-2009, 12:58 AM

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The prohibition against idolatry is also a good point.

Thank you.

dog-on · 09-25-2009, 01:22 AM

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Originally Posted by JABcomix

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The prohibition against idolatry is also a good point.

Thank you.

Except for the fact that Christians are not Jews and the Romans had no particular issue with images.

JABcomix · 09-25-2009, 01:39 AM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

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Originally Posted by JABcomix

Thank you.

Except for the fact that Christians are not Jews and the Romans had no particular issue with images.

Actually, there were no Christians around the time of Jesus. They would have all been Jews, with the exception of the Greeks. However, everettf was asking if there must be somewhere Jewish depictions of Jesus, not Roman or Greek. Besides, Romans were the COPS of that age. They had no interest in making a portrait of a Jew.

dog-on · 09-25-2009, 02:58 AM

Ignoring the very real possibility that there was no Jesus around the time of Jesus, I suppose one can make up any solution one would like.

everettf · 09-25-2009, 04:37 AM

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Originally Posted by JABcomix

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Originally Posted by dog-on

Except for the fact that Christians are not Jews and the Romans had no particular issue with images.

Actually, there were no Christians around the time of Jesus. They would have all been Jews, with the exception of the Greeks. However, everettf was asking if there must be somewhere Jewish depictions of Jesus, not Roman or Greek. Besides, Romans were the COPS of that age. They had no interest in making a portrait of a Jew.

I didn't mention any jewish renditions. I meant any body. I don't care whether they were Greek, Roman or jewish. Did any body depict him in any media?

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09-25-2009, 02:58 AM	#19
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Ignoring the very real possibility that there was no Jesus around the time of Jesus, I suppose one can make up any solution one would like.

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