Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 11-20-2008, 10:00 AM

I look forward to reading comments from readers.

show_no_mercy · 11-20-2008, 01:18 PM

The obvious one is Josephus, but there's no way to know what he actually wrote himself and what was inserted by later Christians.

Toto · 11-20-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josephus

64 And, after Pilate had condemned him to a cross upon an accusation by the principal men among us, those who first loved him did not cease. [[For he appeared to them again having life the third day, as the divine prophets had related these things and a myriad other marvels about him.]] Yet the tribe of the Christians, named after him, has not disappeared even to this day.

Those who assume that there is a genuine underlying reference to Jesus here and try to reconstruct it assume that the part in [[ ]] is a Christian interpolation, or that it originally read something like the Arabic version:

Quote:

But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after the crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

quotes taken from here.

But it is not clear what the point of your question is. Anyone in the first century who reported that Jesus rose from the dead is likely to be a Christian. And even Christians do not claim that there is non-Christian support for the Resurrection. They try to show that it happened by claiming that it inspired Jesus' followers to die for their beliefs. (Although none of them rose from the dead.)

ksen · 11-20-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

They try to show that it happened by claiming that it inspired Jesus' followers to die for their beliefs. (Although none of them rose from the dead.)

Yet.

GakuseiDon · 11-20-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

What non-Christian, first century sources say that Jesus rose from the dead?

Paul.

Transient · 11-20-2008, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

What non-Christian, first century sources say that Jesus rose from the dead?

Paul.

Paul is non-christian?
Well I suppose his "christianity" was supposed to be very different to that of the supposed disciples in Jerusalem.
I guess they both got melded together in later years when it suited those in power, that's if any of it really happened.

Toto · 11-20-2008, 02:05 PM

Is there any more than this?

Quote:

1 Thessalonians 4:14
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

In the first place, Paul doesn't testify that Jesus rose from the dead. He didn't see Jesus die, he wasn't at the tomb, he wasn't there before the ascension by any account. He just says that "we" "believe" that Jesus died and rose again.

In the second place, since when has Paul been a non-Christian source?

And in the third place, are any references in Paul's letters to Jesus rising from the dead any more reliable than Josephus?

Doug Shaver · 11-20-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

What non-Christian, first century sources say that Jesus rose from the dead?

None. No non-Christian would say he rose from the dead. They might say that Christians believed he rose from the dead, but not that he actually did.

So far as I'm aware, among first-century non-Christian writers, the only one who might have attested to such a belief is Josephus. That assumes that the Testimonium Flavianum is based on some authentic original version rather than being a forgery in its entirety. If, as I suspect, Josephus never actually mentioned Jesus at all, then the answer to your question is no.

spamandham · 11-20-2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Is there any more than this?

Quote:

1 Thessalonians 4:14
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Well, there's also the highly suspect (by me) anachronistic creed of 1 Cor 15

Quote:

3-4 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;

Chili · 11-20-2008, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

[ They try to show that it happened by claiming that it inspired Jesus' followers to die for their beliefs. (Although none of them rose from the dead.)

Go to the Baptist board and see how many would die for ther faith in Jesus, which they will anyway, but suffer persecution until death.

11-20-2008, 10:00 AM	#1
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	What non-Christian, first century sources say that Jesus rose from the dead? I look forward to reading comments from readers.

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11-20-2008, 01:18 PM	#2
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	The obvious one is Josephus, but there's no way to know what he actually wrote himself and what was inserted by later Christians.

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