Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sentinel00 · 03-14-2006, 07:14 PM

Yeah, he grabbed a book off his shelf at home, wrapped it, and gave it to humanity.

God sucks.

aChristian · 03-14-2006, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigers!

Rainbows existed before the flood. As you point out it is a measure of the characteristics of water. The flood did not change the characteristics of water. The rainbow was given a new meaning - a reminder that never again would a flood destroy the earth. Did rainbows have meaning before the flood (in case someone asks)? I have no idea.

I would have to disagree. As I read the OT, it had never rained before the flood. Genesis 1:6-8 tells us that there was previously water above the sky as well as below it.

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

A common interpretation is that there was a thick vapor canopy creating a greenhouse effect (hence palm leaves found at the North Pole). This is where much of the water for the flood may have come from, besides the volcanic action of the springs of the great deep breaking forth. This could also be part of the reason for great longevity (combined with the fact that the effect that the curse was just starting to manifest itself in the now broken genetic code). See Institute for Creation Research's website for the details.

Bottom line is that it had never rained before and thus there had never been rain for the light to refract through and the first rainbow ever was seen by Noah as the sign of God's promise to never destroy the entire world again with a worldwide flood.

Kosh · 03-14-2006, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

A common interpretation is that there was a thick vapor canopy creating a greenhouse effect (hence palm leaves found at the North Pole). This is where much of the water for the flood may have come from, besides the volcanic action of the springs of the great deep breaking forth. This could also be part of the reason for great longevity (combined with the fact that the effect that the curse was just starting to manifest itself in the now broken genetic code). See Institute for Creation Research's website for the details.

According to the ICR and AIG, the date of the food would be somewhere around 2304 bc (ala Bishop Ushers use of lineages documented in the OT). That date should be familiar.... it's right smack in the middle of the height of Egyptian pyramid building. They must have all survived by climbing to the top of Cheops....

WishboneDawn · 03-15-2006, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sentinel00

I was thinking about the Noah's Ark story, and I had a thought about God's perfection and how this story might show a possible whole in that perfection.

When the flood was over, and god gave his promise to never again destroy the world via flood again, he made the rainbow, right? (I don't have my bible any more, so I can't look this up.) Now, does that mean that prior to the flood, water did not refract light into a rainbow? Does this mean that God changed water's properties after the flood? Does this mean that, at creation, when god created the oceans and saw that they were good... didn't see that water was unable to refract light? Does this mean water was less perfect before the flood?

I think it means it's myth and a rainbow makes a very pretty symbol of a covenent.

Tigers! · 03-15-2006, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zora

If, after rigorous SCIENTIFIC testing by a multi-national team of real scientists, the thing was found to be a large boat of that era, I would still not be convinced that the Bible is true in total. All I would really know was that a large boat was on the mountain and that it may be the source of the Noah legend (or the Epic of Gilgamesh flood story, or the other ark/flood story.) I most certainly would not know that the Bible is true or that the god of the Bible was the real deal.

So any new evidence would not be enough to get you to possibly reconsider your views?
And theists are accused of being closed-minded!

Julian · 03-15-2006, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

I would have to disagree. As I read the OT, it had never rained before the flood. Genesis 1:6-8 tells us that there was previously water above the sky as well as below it.

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

A common interpretation is that there was a thick vapor canopy creating a greenhouse effect (hence palm leaves found at the North Pole). This is where much of the water for the flood may have come from, besides the volcanic action of the springs of the great deep breaking forth. This could also be part of the reason for great longevity (combined with the fact that the effect that the curse was just starting to manifest itself in the now broken genetic code). See Institute for Creation Research's website for the details.

Bottom line is that it had never rained before and thus there had never been rain for the light to refract through and the first rainbow ever was seen by Noah as the sign of God's promise to never destroy the entire world again with a worldwide flood.

From your buddies over at Answers in Genesis:

Quote:

A major problem with the canopy theory

Vardiman recognized a major difficulty with the canopy theory. The best canopy model still gives an intolerably high temperature at the surface of the earth.
Rush and Vardiman have attempted a solution, but found that they had to drastically reduce the amount of water vapor in the canopy from a rain equivalent of 40 feet (12 meters) to only 20 inches (.5 meters). Further modeling suggested that a maximum of 2 meters (6.5 feet) of water could be held in such a canopy, even if all relevant factors were adjusted to the best possible values to maximize the amount of water stored. Such a reduced canopy would not significantly contribute to the 40 days and nights of rain at the beginning of the Flood.
A vapor canopy holding more than 7 feet (two meters) of rain would cause the earth's surface to be intolerably hot, so a vapor canopy could not have been a significant source of the floodwaters.

Many creation scientists are now either abandoning the water vapor canopy model or no longer see any need for such a concept, particularly if other reasonable mechanisms could have supplied the rain. In the catastrophic plate tectonics model for the Flood, volcanic activity associated with the breaking up of the pre-Flood ocean floor would have created a linear geyser (like a wall) of superheated steam from the ocean, causing intense global rain.
Nevertheless, whatever the source or mechanism, the scriptural statement about the windows of heaven opening is an apt description of global torrential rain.

Another problem with the water canopy theory is that the atmospheric pressure required to hold up that amount of water would crush us to a pulp.

The whole flood myth is a childish, non-sensical story stolen wholesale from the Sumerians.

Julian

John Kesler · 03-15-2006, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Copper Scroll

12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth."

Why would an omniscient deity need a reminder of the covenant that he made? Furthermore, if sending a worldwide flood was such a good solution the first time, why wouldn't God reserve the right to do it again? Consider these two statements:

Quote:

Genesis 6:5-7 (NRSV)
5 Yahweh saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6 And Yahweh was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So Yahweh said, "I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created--people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

Genesis 8:20-21 (NRSV)
20 Then Noah built an altar to Yahweh, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And when Yahweh smelled the pleasing odor, Yahweh said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of humankind, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from youth; nor will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.

So Yahweh was dismayed that man's thoughts were evil, then sent a flood to kill everyone. But he promised never to do it again because...man's heart is evil!

Copper Scroll · 03-15-2006, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Why would an omniscient deity need a reminder of the covenant that he made?

The way I interpret this though is not as "remember" as in "jog my memory about this covenant"--but as "honor this covenant".

Quote:

Furthermore, if sending a worldwide flood was such a good solution the first time, why wouldn't God reserve the right to do it again?

I suppose that by starting fresh--or almost fresh--God could find another way to rid the world of sin, so to speak.

Quote:

So Yahweh was dismayed that man's thoughts were evil, then sent a flood to kill everyone. But he promised never to do it again because...man's heart is evil!

In the first situation, there's a lot more men--perhaps an unmanageable amount of sin. So God sends the flood. By preserving man in Noah, God recognizes that sin has not been washed away. But now God can work with Noah alone and eventually the Abrahamic line and the nation of Israel in helping man to find a way to overcome his sinful nature. Before the flood, I assume the situation was hopeless. The text implies the Noah was the only man God found favor with.

John Kesler · 03-15-2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Copper Scroll

The way I interpret this though is not as "remember" as in "jog my memory about this covenant"--but as "honor this covenant".

Here is Genesis 9:16 from the JPS:

Quote:

16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.'

This idea of a visual reminder appears in Numbers regarding the Israelites' dress. Notice the similar wording:

Numbers 15:38-39 (JPS)

Quote:

38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them throughout their generations fringes in the corners of their garments, and that they put with the fringe of each corner a thread of blue. 39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of Yahweh, and do them; and that ye go not about after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go astray;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Copper Scroll

I suppose that by starting fresh--or almost fresh--God could find another way to rid the world of sin, so to speak.

This implies that prior to the flood, Yahweh thought that flooding the earth was a good way to "rid the world of sin," and only by trial and error did he realize the futility of this method. Why would an omniscient deity need to "find another way to rid the world of sin"? Didn't he already know what would, and would not, work?

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

So Yahweh was dismayed that man's thoughts were evil, then sent a flood to kill everyone. But he promised never to do it again because...man's heart is evil!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Copper Scroll

In the first situation, there's a lot more men--perhaps an unmanageable amount of sin.So God sends the flood. By preserving man in Noah, God recognizes that sin has not been washed away. But now God can work with Noah alone and eventually the Abrahamic line and the nation of Israel in helping man to find a way to overcome his sinful nature. Before the flood, I assume the situation was hopeless. The text implies the Noah was the only man God found favor with.

Your response doesn't address my comment. The point is that a condition that caused Yahweh to send the flood to begin with--man's inclination toward evil--was given by Yahweh as a reason why he wouldn't send another flood. In other words, only after the failed flood experiment does Yahweh resign himself to the fact that man has an evil nature. As far as "preserving man in Noah" is concerned, Yahweh again showed lack of foresight by allowing Ham on the ark, since Ham's descendants were the evil Canaanites (Genesis 10:6-20) who had to be, of course, exterminated. The whole flood story doesn't say much for God's alleged foreknowledge.

aChristian · 03-15-2006, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Another problem with the water canopy theory is that the atmospheric pressure required to hold up that amount of water would crush us to a pulp.
Julian

I've worked with models before, so I am holding off judgement at this point. The canopy theory seems supported by the waters above and other scriptures mentioned in the article you referenced. The canopy theory could be wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

The whole flood myth is a childish, non-sensical story stolen wholesale from the Sumerians.

Julian

Naw, they just remembered it too, although not as accurately as recorded in the Bible.

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03-14-2006, 07:14 PM	#11
sentinel00 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Mayor of Terminus Posts: 7,616	Yeah, he grabbed a book off his shelf at home, wrapped it, and gave it to humanity. God sucks.

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