Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 09-26-2012, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

".....the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.

Though it has in it nothing divine, by making full use of that part of the soul which loves fable and is childish and foolish,

it has induced men to believe that the monstrous tale is truth. ." -Julian 'the Apostates' opinion of Christianity.

Joseph Smith fabricated the Book of the Mormons from Golden Plates on the instruction of the Angel Moroni.

Who fabricated the Memoirs of the Apostles, the Acts of Pontius Pilate and Revelation by John???

It was NOT Justin.

Who Fabricated the 7 day Creation story in Genesis??? It was NOT the 1st century Jews.

Sheshbazzar · 09-27-2012, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

".....the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.

Though it has in it nothing divine, by making full use of that part of the soul which loves fable and is childish and foolish,

it has induced men to believe that the monstrous tale is truth. ." -Julian 'the Apostates' opinion of Christianity.

Joseph Smith fabricated the Book of the Mormons from Golden Plates on the instruction of the Angel Moroni.

Who fabricated the Memoirs of the Apostles, the Acts of Pontius Pilate

Although your questions seem to be rhetorical, I'll give them a (-somewhat 'tongue-in-cheek'- ) shot.

Whoever it was (possibly the work of more than one individual) that fabricated 'The Memoirs', seems to have been Saint 'Anonymous' :Cheeky:
hard to tell at this late date as no copy of these 'Memoirs of The Apostles' has ever turned up for us to actually critically examine.

'The Acts of Pontius Pilate' is a bit like the golden plates of Moroni. We don't have them. Do have a lot of fake medieval 'translation' forgeries however.

Quote:

and Revelation by John???

I believe that this began as an early Jewish anti-'Christian' polemic. One that was taken over, edited and quite crudely Christianized, its sharp barbs are pointed at the despised false religion of 'Christianized' Rome.

Quote:

Who Fabricated the 7 day Creation story in Genesis??? It was NOT the 1st century Jews.

If I were a Hasidic Jew I would be required to reply 'Moses'. But I'm not.

The 7 day week, and the forerunners of that Creation story presented in Genesis have been Archaeologically traced back to civilizations, sources and clay tablets inscribed thousands of years before the emergence of the Hebrews.

_So it wasn't the Hebrews. -perhaps some 6000 BCE Sumerian dude named 'Anon'ey'mous' ???

aa5874 · 09-27-2012, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

".....the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.

Though it has in it nothing divine, by making full use of that part of the soul which loves fable and is childish and foolish,

it has induced men to believe that the monstrous tale is truth. ." -Julian 'the Apostates' opinion of Christianity.

Julian's opening remarks in "Against the Galileans" augment my argument.

The Jesus story was composed by Anonymous DECEIVERS.

People of antiquity BELIEVED the story was the Truth.

Now we have a religion.

The same thing happens up to now.

People DECEIVE others to start a Religion.

Iskander · 09-27-2012, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

N/A

Did Christianity originate with Justin Martyr? No, say you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

the Jesus stories in the Canon may have been copied from the Memoirs of the Apostles

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Justin's stories of his Jesus were from the Memoirs of the Apostles

Martyr used existing writings of the apostles – or oral tradition- that were being used in established churches to write first Apology.

These writings of the apostles that Justin used to write the First Apology were later given a different name: the memoirs of the apostles became the gospels, and that is what the footnotes to the first Apology say.

Christianity cannot have began with Justin Martyr if he may have used the memoirs of the apostles aka gospels

Sheshbazzar · 09-27-2012, 07:01 AM

Justin used the writings of Saint Anonymous. _No 'apostles' nor "writings of the apostles" required.

That a story was circulated and written, that had 'apostles' in it, and was mistakenly attributed to the 'apostles' is no indication that any 'apostles' wrote any of it, or for that matter, had ever even existed outside of the confines of that highly imaginative religious Story.

.

aa5874 · 09-27-2012, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Justin's stories of his Jesus were from the Memoirs of the Apostles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Martyr used existing writings of the apostles – or oral tradition- that were being used in established churches to write first Apology.

Justin used the Memoirs of the Apostles, the Acts of Pontius Pilate, and Revelation by John.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

...These writings of the apostles that Justin used to write the First Apology were later given a different name: the memoirs of the apostles became the gospels, and that is what the footnotes to the first Apology say...

Again, your statement cannot be shown to be true or logical. There is NO indication that the Memoirs of the Apostles contained two contradictory genealogies, that Jesus was equal to God, that Jesus promised to send the Holy Ghost, and the Canonised Gospels do NOT claim Jesus was born in a Cave.

Also, in "Refutation of All Heresies" by Hippolytus it is claimed that the teaching that Jesus was Equal to God was an Heresy introduced sometime around the start of the 3rd century.

Justin claimed Jesus was SECOND to God and that God was the Creator.

In gJohn Jesus is Equal to God and was God the Creator.

It would appear that the Memoirs of the Apostles was NOT the Four Distinct Gospels found in the Canon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

...Christianity cannot have began with Justin Martyr if he may have used the memoirs of the apostles aka gospels

You seem not to understand that the very same way Later Jesus stories called gMatthew and gLuke were fabricated using parts of gMark that parts of the Memoirs of the Apostles could have been used for the Birth Narratives of gMatthew and gLuke.

The similarities between the Memoirs of the Apostles and the Canonised Four Gospels do NOT mean that they were the same just like the similarities between gMark, and gMatthew, and gLuke do NOT mean they are ONE and the same.

Iskander · 09-27-2012, 11:02 AM

Did Christianity originate with Justin Martyr? No, say you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

the MEMOIRS of the Apostles were read in the Churches on Sundays in the mid 2nd century

You say that: There were churches using the memoirs
And

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Justin's stories of his Jesus were from the Memoirs of the Apostles

You say that: Justin’s knowledge of Jesus comes from reading the memoirs or from listening to homilies in church
You said he had learned this from reading or listening to the preachers of the memoirs
And this is what Justin writes about Jesus.
Chapter LXI.—Christian baptism.
For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”1894
1894 John iii. 5.

And

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

the Jesus stories in the Canon may have been copied from the Memoirs of the Apostles

You say that: the stories learned by Justin from the preachers of the memoirs were later incorporated into the canon: copied perhaps as the explanation for finding “what Justin writes about Jesus” in the gospels .
There were some modifications made to the material which Justin had known and used for the First Apology but this is irrelevant.
Did Christianity originate with Martyr? You are answering that question in the negative.

I will not post again on this thread. I only wanted to suggest that perhaps you should work a little more on the exposition of your theory before making it public.

Duvduv · 09-27-2012, 11:31 AM

Don't you just love it when AA allows himself the right to use expressions like "may have" without any supporting evidence, but does not allow the same right to anyone else who makes the attempt to discuss anything with him?? It's incredible........

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

First apology

Chapter XVI.—Concerning patience and swearing.[296]
And concerning our being patient of injuries, and ready to serve all, and free from anger, this is what He said: “To him that smiteth thee on the one cheek, offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak or coat, forbid not. And whosoever shall be angry, is in danger of the fire. And every one that compelleth thee to go with him a mile, follow him two. And let your good works shine before men, that they, seeing them, may glorify your Father which is in heaven.”1794.
1794 Luke vi. 29; Matt. vi. 22, 41, 16.

Chapter XXXIII.—Manner of Christ’s birth predicted.
And the angel of God who was sent to the same virgin at that time brought her good news, saying, “Behold, thou shalt conceive of the Holy Ghost, and shalt bear a Son, and He shall be called the Son of the Highest, and thou shalt call His name Jesus; for He shall save His people from their sins,”1831—
1831 Luke i. 32; Matt. i. 21.

Chapter LXV.—Administration of the sacraments.[329]
Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss.1908

1908 The kiss of charity, the kiss of peace, or “the peace” (ἡ εἰπήνη), was enjoined by the Apostle Paul in his Epistles to the Corinthians, Thessalonians, and Romans, and thence passed into a common Christian usage

First Apology LXVII

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And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read...

Justin Martyr and the Churches of the mid 2nd century did NOT use gMatthew, gMark, gLuke, gJohn, Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline and Non-Pauline Epistles.

They used the Memoirs of the Apostles or the writings of the Prophets.

It should be rather easy to understand that the Jesus stories in the Canon may have been copied from the Memoirs of the Apostles.

Justin Martyr is a WITNESS that the MEMOIRS of the Apostles were read in the Churches on Sundays in the mid 2nd century.

The Memoirs of the Apostles may have been an Early version of the Diatessaron supposedly used by Tatian a follower of Justin.

aa5874 · 09-27-2012, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

You say that: Justin’s knowledge of Jesus comes from reading the memoirs or from listening to homilies in church
You said he had learned this from reading or listening to the preachers of the memoirs
And this is what Justin writes about Jesus.
Chapter LXI.—Christian baptism.
For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”1894
1894 John iii. 5....

You are assuming that the Memoirs of the Apostles did contain gJohn which is NOT ever acknowledged.

Justin claimed Jesus was SECOND to God and such a statement is NOT in any Canonised Gospel.

Again, Justin claimed Jesus was born in CAVE and such a statement is NOT in any Canonised Gospel.

Have you not heard of the Diatessaron??? The Memoirs of the Apostles could have been a SINGLE story which the authors of gMatthew, gLuke and gJohn Plagerised.

The authors of gMatthew and gLuke appear to have PLAGERISED gMark.

Are you implying that the authors of gMatthew, gLuke and gJohn could NOT have also Plagerised the Memoirs??

Where did the author of gMatthew and gLuke get their Birth Narrative because it is NOT in gMark which thet appear to have plagerised??

Of course, they could have PLAGERISED parts of the birth narrative in the Memoirs of the Apostles.

Up to the mid 3rd century Origen acknowledged there was a CAVE Birth story of Jesus.

See Against Celsus 1.51.

aa5874 · 09-27-2012, 04:39 PM

It is most remarkable that although Justin Martyr does NOT mention any books of the Canon except Revelation by John and does NOT mention the Activities of the Disciples and Paul yet he is corroborated by Apologetic and Non-Apologetic sources.

Justin mentioned the Cave Birth story which is NOT found in gMatthew and gLuke.

First Apology LXXVIII

Quote:

... But when the Child was born in Bethlehem, since Joseph could not find a lodging in that village, he took up his quarters in a certain cave near the village; and while they were there Mary brought forth the Christ and placed Him in a manger, and here the Magi who came from Arabia found Him.

Origen will ALSO claim that the "Gospel of the disciples" did have a Cave Birth story.

Against Celsus 1.51

Quote:

With respect to the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, if any one desires, after the prophecy of Micah and after the history recorded in the Gospels by the disciples of Jesus, to have additional evidence from other sources, let him know that, in conformity with the narrative in the Gospel regarding His birth, there is shown at Bethlehem the cave where He was born, and the manger in the cave where He was wrapped in swaddling-clothes...

The Memoirs of the Apostles is NOT gMatthew, gLuke or gJohn.

The Memoirs of the Apostles did contain different accounts of the Jesus story.

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09-27-2012, 07:01 AM	#515
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Justin used the writings of Saint Anonymous. _No 'apostles' nor "writings of the apostles" required. That a story was circulated and written, that had 'apostles' in it, and was mistakenly attributed to the 'apostles' is no indication that any 'apostles' wrote any of it, or for that matter, had ever even existed outside of the confines of that highly imaginative religious Story. .

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