Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrMacSon · 08-02-2012, 07:31 PM

It seems a long-stretch to conflate mention of one sect, from that time, with the later development of another religion, especially when that sect was in a time of many sects led by many messiahs.

I would even hypothesis that Christianity did not start and did not arise in the specific period that it is widely touted to have sprung from: v.z 1-4AD/CE to 33AD/CE ...

... I hypothesize that Christianity was the culmination of a long tradition of stories, developed from ~ 2-300BC/BCE, to fulfill the Olde Testament prophecies.

outhouse · 08-02-2012, 07:48 PM

epic fail, due to reaching beyond what imagination even calls for

GakuseiDon · 08-02-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Some of that may well be representative of later Christianity, but is it of the Christianity of Jesus' time? I don't see anything in Philo's account that ties it specifically into an early Jewish Christianity, though the parallels are interesting.

What are you suggesting exactly? That the Jesus movement came out of the Therapeutae group? Or were influenced by them? Or were actually them?

When I apply the scientific method and Occam's razor and inductive reasoning with the historical data and primary source material, I would say the scenarios you list are all viable and basically what I had in mind, with a preference towards this: Or were actually them? As such Philo *does* offer a contemporary and independent eye witness to Jesus tradition contra Christ mythicists.

"Jesus tradition" is the issue, I think: the Jesus tradition at what period? For example:

"They were dedicated to the contemplative life, and their activities for six days of the week consisted of ascetic practices, fasting, solitary prayers and the study of the scriptures in their isolated cells, each with its separate holy sanctuary, and enclosed courtyard:"

That doesn't sound like First Century Christianity to me. It may well reflect the monastic life that developed in Third or Fourth Century Christianity, but First Century Christianity sounds more like an itinerant preaching movement, performing miracles and preaching a coming apocalypse.

Not to say that there aren't parallels, but they could be common to other groups of the time. So you may be right, but I think it is just interesting speculation at this stage.

pinkvoy · 08-02-2012, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

It seems a long-stretch to conflate mention of one sect, from that time, with the later development of another religion, especially when that sect was in a time of many sects led by many messiahs..

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

more like 2 different descriptions of the same sect over time.

pinkvoy · 08-02-2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

epic fail, due to reaching beyond what imagination even calls for

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

pinkvoy · 08-02-2012, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

When I apply the scientific method and Occam's razor and inductive reasoning with the historical data and primary source material, I would say the scenarios you list are all viable and basically what I had in mind, with a preference towards this: Or were actually them? As such Philo *does* offer a contemporary and independent eye witness to Jesus tradition contra Christ mythicists.

"Jesus tradition" is the issue, I think: the Jesus tradition at what period? For example:

"They were dedicated to the contemplative life, and their activities for six days of the week consisted of ascetic practices, fasting, solitary prayers and the study of the scriptures in their isolated cells, each with its separate holy sanctuary, and enclosed courtyard:"

That doesn't sound like First Century Christianity to me. It may well reflect the monastic life that developed in Third or Fourth Century Christianity, but First Century Christianity sounds more like an itinerant preaching movement, performing miracles and preaching a coming apocalypse.

Not to say that there aren't parallels, but they could be common to other groups of the time. So you may be right, but I think it is just interesting speculation at this stage.

the earliest and most historical reliable

the following pericope fully satisfy the criteria you set out above

for background let's discuss the spiritual practice of the vision quest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_quest

Quote:

A vision quest is a rite of passage in some Native American cultures.

In many Native American groups, the vision quest is a turning point in life taken before to find oneself and the intended spiritual and life direction. When an older child is ready, he or she will go on a personal, spiritual quest alone in the wilderness, often in conjunction with a period of fasting.[1] This usually lasts for a number of days while the child is attuned to the spirit world.[1] Usually, a Guardian animal or force of nature will come in a vision or dream, and give guidance for the child's life.[1] The child returns to the tribe, and once the child has grown, will pursue that direction in life. After a vision quest, the child may become an apprentice of an adult in the tribe of the shown direction (Medicine Man, boat-maker and so on).

The vision quest is the learning and initiation process of the apprentice under the guidance of an elders.[1]

The vision quest may be said to make the initiated establish contact with a spirit or force. Psychologically, it may have effected hallucinations.[citation needed] When talking to Yellow Wolf, Lucullus Virgil McWhorter came to believe that the person fasts, and stays awake and concentrates on their quest until their mind becomes "comatose."[1] It was then that their Weyekin (Nez Perce word) revealed itself.[1]

Not just found among American Indians, Inuit peoples also participated in this tradition.[2] For them the technique may be similar to sensory deprivation methods. It may include long periods of walking in uninhabited, mountainous areas (tundra, inland, mountain); fasting; sleep deprivation; or being closed in a small room (e.g. igloo).

i.e

Quote:

Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness

4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

"They were dedicated to the contemplative life, and their activities for six days of the week consisted of ascetic practices, fasting, solitary prayers"

4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.

and the study of the scriptures in their isolated cells

3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”

, each with its separate holy sanctuary, and enclosed courtyard:"

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

Jesus engaged Therapeutae spirital practices as described by Philo, then told his followers the spiritual vision he had when he was alone with scripture. He was tempted and he overcame. This spiritual quest was then passed on to his followers. It was finally recorded in the synoptic gospels around 70 CE.

Tradition is attested by both Philo and gospels, and anthropology states vision quest is common in many spiritual cultures.

aa5874 · 08-02-2012, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

"Jesus tradition" is the issue, I think: the Jesus tradition at what period? For example:

"They were dedicated to the contemplative life, and their activities for six days of the week consisted of ascetic practices, fasting, solitary prayers and the study of the scriptures in their isolated cells, each with its separate holy sanctuary, and enclosed courtyard:"

That doesn't sound like First Century Christianity to me. It may well reflect the monastic life that developed in Third or Fourth Century Christianity, but First Century Christianity sounds more like an itinerant preaching movement, performing miracles and preaching a coming apocalypse.

Not to say that there aren't parallels, but they could be common to other groups of the time. So you may be right, but I think it is just interesting speculation at this stage.

Please, tell us where you get YOUR SOUNDS for "First Century Christianity"???

Did you get the SOUNDS from Acts of the Apostles???

Please, we have been through this so many times.

There is NO known credible source that SHOW any "First Century Christians".

All we have are Myth Fables in Acts 2 about the Holy Ghost in the 1st century giving POWER to people to preach Jesus.

The Essenes and the Therapeutae did NOT get any POWER from the Holy Ghost based on Philo.

aa5874 · 08-02-2012, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

Jesus engaged Therapeutae spirital practices as described by Philo, then told his followers the spiritual vision he had when he was alone with scripture. He was tempted and he overcame. This spiritual quest was then passed on to his followers. It was finally recorded in the synoptic gospels around 70 CE....

Please, your statement is horribly erroneous. No Gospel has been recovered and dated to 70 CE.

Your PRESUMPTIONS are Worthless.

MrMacSon · 08-02-2012, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

It seems a long-stretch to conflate mention of one sect, from that time, with the later development of another religion, especially when that sect was in a time of many sects led by many messiahs..

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

more like 2 different descriptions of the same sect over time.

The messianic age had numerous sects; some probably only lasted a generation of two; many probably changed 'tact'.

You're portraying wishful thinking and significant conflation ... nothing 'self-evident" about your non-inductive proposal.

pinkvoy · 08-02-2012, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

It seems a long-stretch to conflate mention of one sect, from that time, with the later development of another religion, especially when that sect was in a time of many sects led by many messiahs..

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

more like 2 different descriptions of the same sect over time.

The messianic age had numerous sects; some probably only lasted a generation of two; many probably changed 'tact'.

You're portraying wishful thinking and significant conflation ... nothing 'self-evident" about your non-inductive proposal.

right now, stage 1

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08-02-2012, 07:31 PM	#11
MrMacSon Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: South Pacific Posts: 559	It seems a long-stretch to conflate mention of one sect, from that time, with the later development of another religion, especially when that sect was in a time of many sects led by many messiahs. I would even hypothesis that Christianity did not start and did not arise in the specific period that it is widely touted to have sprung from: v.z 1-4AD/CE to 33AD/CE ... ... I hypothesize that Christianity was the culmination of a long tradition of stories, developed from ~ 2-300BC/BCE, to fulfill the Olde Testament prophecies.

08-02-2012, 07:48 PM	#12
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	epic fail, due to reaching beyond what imagination even calls for

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