Freethought & Rationalism Archive

reniaa · 02-20-2008, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadPhatCat

Quote:

Originally Posted by yalla

Was force applied?
No.
Therefore by this definition ....not rape..

I'll remember that when I have sex with a sleeping person who doesn't wake up during the sex. (Methinks that first definition you found is terribly inadequate).

i think you guys are going to have define sex and rape here, since by both standards God didn't do them by current law. if a woman got implanted by a doctor an embryo would that be sex and rape?

stuart shepherd · 02-20-2008, 10:52 AM

Mary wasn't raped. She gave her consent.

Quote:

Luke 1:35,38 (King James Version)
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

I think the crime was more like adultery.

Quote:

Luke 1:26-27 (King James Version)
26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

If Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus, I think that would make Jesus a bastard.

Being a bastard was a problem for a Jew.

Quote:

Deuteronomy 23:2 (King James Version)
2A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

How can a bastard be the king of the Jews, the Jewish Messiah, and even God himself, if he can ""not enter into the congregation of the LORD""?

Stuart Shepherd

Toto · 02-20-2008, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

... However, if we wish to take the text seriously, we must assume that no natural scientific laws are broken unless the text specifically tells us that they were. In this case, we cannot assume that any alien matter was introduced into Mary's womb. Thus, we have to conclude that a cloning process of some sort took place, which leads us to the idea of a female child.

...

I'm not sure why we have to make that assumption, but if we are going to do that, should we not use the scientific laws as understood in the first century? The ancients did not know about cloning or the Y chromosome, or the egg for that matter. Pregnancy was a somewhat mysterious process that often involved divine intervention.

Unless by "take the text seriously" you mean treat it as a Protestant Rationalist would, and assume that everything happened due to some natural cause. But you see the problems that creates.

xrey · 02-20-2008, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Yes, there could not have been sexual intercourse. It is absurd to think of a holy ghost being able to have intercouse and producing sperm in a penis to fertilize a female egg. Therefore, we have to assume that all the DNA came from Mary. This means that Jesus was a clone of Mary and therefore had a female body like Mary's.

Reminds me of a "miracle" bleeding Jesus statue. Someone tested the blood, which turned out to be from a woman. "Aha!" the believers said, "Jesus didn't have a Y chromosome, so of course his blood test would turn up female!":Cheeky:

reniaa · 02-20-2008, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Mary wasn't raped. She gave her consent.

Quote:

Luke 1:35,38 (King James Version)
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

I think the crime was more like adultery.

If Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus, I think that would make Jesus a bastard.

Being a bastard was a problem for a Jew.

Quote:

Deuteronomy 23:2 (King James Version)
2A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

How can a bastard be the king of the Jews, the Jewish Messiah, and even God himself, if he can ""not enter into the congregation of the LORD""?

Stuart Shepherd

actually as long as you are born in wedlock you are not a bastard even if the man your mum is married too is not the father. and mary married joseph before jesus was born.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-20-2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reniaa

You're right there could be no test to prove she was a virgin, but you forget it was angels that testified to Joseph her purity and her carrying God's child.

That is quite interesting. You said "there could be no test to prove she was a virgin," which is obvious, and that "it was angels that testified to Joseph her purity and her carrying God's child." What test did you use to verify that "it was angels that testified to Joseph her purity and her carrying God's child"? How is the verification of the first claim any more difficult than the verification of the second claim?

reniaa · 02-20-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by reniaa

You're right there could be no test to prove she was a virgin, but you forget it was angels that testified to Joseph her purity and her carrying God's child.

That is quite interesting. You said "there could be no test to prove she was a virgin," which is obvious, and that "it was angels that testified to Joseph her purity and her carrying God's child." What test did you use to verify that "it was angels that testified to Joseph her purity and her carrying God's child"? How is the verification of the first claim any more difficult than the verification of the second claim?

we are assuming bible is correct here and stands alone as written

Lógos Sokratikós · 02-20-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reniaa

actually as long as you are born in wedlock you are not a bastard even if the man your mum is married too is not the father. and mary married joseph before jesus was born.

This makes sense... for a time when there were no paternity tests, and therefore no hard evidence for illegitimacy.

stuart shepherd · 02-20-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reniaa

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

If Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus, I think that would make Jesus a bastard.

Being a bastard was a problem for a Jew.

How can a bastard be the king of the Jews, the Jewish Messiah, and even God himself, if he can ""not enter into the congregation of the LORD""?

Stuart Shepherd

actually as long as you are born in wedlock you are not a bastard even if the man your mum is married too is not the father. and mary married joseph before jesus was born.

born of parents not married to each other= a bastard

Stuart Shepherd

Minimalist · 02-20-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

we are assuming bible is correct here and stands alone as written

Biiiiiiiiigggggggggg assumption, there. In Gone With The Wind, Scarlett O'Hara had a baby, too. Doesn't make either of them "real."

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.