Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Julio · 09-17-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susan2

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

It seems from his own words, that Paul or the writer of Corinthians was gay.

In examining 1:Cori............melodramatic, very "Queenly" and "feminine".

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

From the perspective .........im over to Christ. Is she then to tolerate his debasement of her? Is she to endanger her own life?

I see these passages as violence against women, not about homosexuality.

I do think Paul was a sick man, a very sick man, as is the ensuing religion; which has nothing to do with homosexuality, which doesn't mean that sickness doesn't exist in homosexual people, as it does in heterosexual people.

I think Paul was a tyrant, no, worse, a terrorist.

[My underlining]
I agree with that!
He was a cruel character, suffering from some low self-esteem or worse, trying to cover up his miseries with religion.

Toto · 09-17-2009, 09:35 AM

Syphilis and other venereal diseases IIRC did not exist in ancient Rome. They spread from the New World to Europe after Columbus' ships returned.

Susan2 · 09-17-2009, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Syphilis and other venereal diseases IIRC did not exist in ancient Rome. They spread from the New World to Europe after Columbus' ships returned.

Evidence?

Am I supposed to boo hoo?

They reaped what they sowed?

Abd beside, they sent the small pox. God works in mysterious ways?

credoconsolans · 09-17-2009, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Syphilis and other venereal diseases IIRC did not exist in ancient Rome. They spread from the New World to Europe after Columbus' ships returned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susan2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Syphilis and other venereal diseases IIRC did not exist in ancient Rome. They spread from the New World to Europe after Columbus' ships returned.

Evidence?

Am I supposed to boo hoo?

They reaped what they sowed?

Abd beside, they sent the small pox. God works in mysterious ways?

Yeah, I thought there was some recent publications out showing that venereal disease was not a disease of the New World...Can't recall where I read it though. Wasn't too long ago.

arnoldo · 09-17-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susan2

From the perspective .........im over to Christ. Is she then to tolerate his debasement of her? Is she to endanger her own life?

I see these passages as violence against women, not about homosexuality.

I do think Paul was a sick man, a very sick man, as is the ensuing religion; which has nothing to do with homosexuality, which doesn't mean that sickness doesn't exist in homosexual people, as it does in heterosexual people.

I think Paul was a tyrant, no, worse, a terrorist.

[My underlining]
I agree with that!
He was a cruel character, suffering from some low self-esteem or worse, trying to cover up his miseries with religion.

So is the consensus in this thread that Paul was an actual historical person, who had the above mentioned character defects, or is all this manufactured outrage directed towards an alleged fictional character?

arnoldo · 09-17-2009, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Is there any indication that same sex relations would have been okay for an ascetic, either in practice or theory?

As per judaic law same sex relations were prohibited, however Paul welcomed former homosexuals into the emerging church as per the following verse;

Quote:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (King James Version)

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Toto · 09-17-2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

[My underlining]
I agree with that!
He was a cruel character, suffering from some low self-esteem or worse, trying to cover up his miseries with religion.

So is the consensus in this thread that Paul was an actual historical person, who had the above mentioned character defects, or is all this manufactured outrage directed towards an alleged fictional character?

I don't think that there is a consensus in this thread, but the working assumption seems to be that someone wrote the letters attributed to Paul, so we can call him "Paul" and try to figure out something about him.

Keith&Co. · 09-17-2009, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

So is the consensus in this thread that Paul was an actual historical person, who had the above mentioned character defects,

Would you ask this sort of question in a thread discussing Picard's discontent with Sisko in the pilot for Deep Space Nine?

Can we say: Picard was angry because... or do we always have to say: The writers had Patrick speak lines that indicated an anger based on...

Does the discussion of a character in a book, movie, comic or role playing game, with relation to their alleged physical and social setting as it's understood by the audience, have to couched, every time, with framework statements such as:
"If Paul were real, and all the books attributed to him were in fact not pseudographs, then it is my impression...."

???

Someone had to write it. The thoughts of the author cannot be accessed from our current remove. But the writings may suggest something to us. Paul, paul's ghostwriter or paul's holyghostwriter seems to....

Toto · 09-17-2009, 11:49 AM

Wikipedia FWIW

Quote:

The first well-recorded European outbreak of what is now known as syphilis occurred in 1494 when it broke out among French troops besieging Naples.[18] The French may have caught it via Spanish mercenaries serving King Charles of France in that siege.[9] From this centre, the disease swept across Europe. As Jared Diamond describes it, "[W]hen syphilis was first definitely recorded in Europe in 1495, its pustules often covered the body from the head to the knees, caused flesh to fall from people's faces, and led to death within a few months." In addition, the disease was more frequently fatal than it is today. Diamond concludes,"[B]y 1546, the disease had evolved into the disease with the symptoms so well known to us today."[19] The epidemiology of this first syphilis epidemic shows that the disease was either new or a mutated form of an earlier disease.

Researchers concluded that syphilis was carried from the New World to Europe after Columbus' voyages. The findings suggested Europeans could have carried the nonvenereal tropical bacteria home, where the organisms may have mutated into a more deadly form in the different conditions and low immunity of the population of Europe.[20] Syphilis was a major killer in Europe during the Renaissance.[21]

There were some skeletons from before the time of Columbus unearthed at Hull friary in England that seemed to show some symptons of syphilis. There is a long article here:

Quote:

The "Columbus Theory"

According to sixteenth-century medical astrologers, a strange conjunction of Jupiter, Saturn, and Mars produced a toxic miasma, or poisonous gas, that brought a new epidemic disease to Europe. Even today, astrologers might argue that this theory has never been disproved. Another sixteenth-century theory was based on the idea that the New World was the source of new diseases, as well as new plants and animals. The expansion of commerce, travel, and warfare that characterized the fifteenth century transformed patterns of epidemic disease. Thus, many Renaissance physicians adopted the "Columbus Theory" as an answer to the origin of syphilis; that is, they assumed that Christopher Columbus and his crew had imported syphilis from the New World to the Old World.

Fracastoro recommended mercury as a remedy for syphilis, but many other physicians favored an expensive remedy known as "Holy Wood," which was made from the bark of trees indigenous to the New World. According to the ancient Doctrine of Signatures, if syphilis originated in the New World, the remedy should be found there. Therefore, physicians and merchants who profited from the use of Holy Wood were staunch advocates of the Columbus Theory.

In any case, syphilis does not seem to have existed in the first or second centuries, and there is no record of any concern over it among ancient writers - unless you think that leprosy was actually syhilis misdiagnosed. But this view has been investigated and rejected.

Susan2 · 09-17-2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:

arnoldo
So is the consensus in this thread that Paul was an actual historical person, who had the above mentioned character defects, or is all this manufactured outrage directed towards an alleged fictional character?

The question isn’t whether Paul was historical or not, the question is whether or not Paul was gay.

Do you have an opinion?

Paul is not a fictional character to millions of Christians; Paul is real. Christians have, for some however many years, lived by the words of Paul. That has had a disastrous effect on both gays and women, and continues to have an effect on gays and women, hence men and women, whether heterosexual or homosexual.

I think that makes the question of the historicity of Paul redundant.

Paul’s writings are proffered as having come directly from authority, specifically, the Lord Jesus, as commandments; and as divinely inspired from Paul’s own knowledge as to the mind of the Jesus.

Why not assume he was if the scriptures have created such men, then argue to the character of Paul, hence such men?

Would that make you uncomfortable? If one were to argue to the character of Paul would that make religion uncomfortable?

Quote:

manufactured outrage

Is that manufactured hostility or real?

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09-17-2009, 09:35 AM	#22
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Syphilis and other venereal diseases IIRC did not exist in ancient Rome. They spread from the New World to Europe after Columbus' ships returned.

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