Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-25-2012, 03:02 PM

I wasn't aware of this but the Marqe (= Mark) seems to think that Jacob not only became transformed by the light he saw emanating from the glory of God at Bethel (= mount Gerizim) but also became intimate with God (like Moses). Here are the relevant passages:

Quote:

It is a special thing that we receive blessings from our Lord, who is merciful and pitiful, doing good to those who love Him. Let us consider Moses, the Man of God, in the sea as he speaks with mighty prophecy—"On thy own mountain" (Ex. xv . 1 7 ) . What is His own? Israel is His own, as He said, "His allotted heritage Israel" (Deut. xxxii. 9 SP LXX). The place for thy abode (Ex. x v . 1 7 ) contains two parts; first the holy place (cf. verse 13 ) , second the angels of God did not cease ascending and descending on it (Gen. xxviii. 1 2 ). Whence is the House of God and the dwelling place for His glory ? There is no Presence anywhere else! [Mimar Marqe 2.10]

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It (mount Gerizim) has THIRTEEN NAMES in the law, each declaring its glory!

The first: The Mountain of the East (Gen. x. 30), for the God of the East had chosen it from the days of Creation. It was after this that He uncovered the dry land and appointed seven reliable testimonies to it, which are revealed in the Ten Words (Ex. xx) from the mouth of the Mighty One through a faithful, righteous prophet.
0 Lord, which thy hands have established.
The Lord will reign for ever and ever.

The second: Bethel (Gen. xii. 8), for God mighty and awesome is a shield and helper to those who believe in Him. He made it a place of refuge, an escape for all who return (sha'eb) to God.
0 Lord, which thy hands have established.
The Lord will reign for ever and ever.

The third: The House of God (Gen. xxviii. 17) , for the holy angels did not cease uttering praise to their Lord, seeking God in it.
0 Lord, which thy hands have established.
The Lord will reign for ever and ever.

The fourth: The Gate of Heaven (ibid.), for all who turn towards it, seeking God, will find Him near. It is the place of the Nazirites, the tithes, the oblations, the vows, the blessings, the sacrifices, the gifts, the burnt offerings and all the offerings.
0 Lord, which thy hands have established.
The Lord will reign for ever and ever.

The fifth: Its name was Luza at first (Gen. xxviii. 1 9 ) 1 6 4—i.e. this name
was given because of its glory and light—as Jacob said, "How awesome is this place" (Gen. xxviii. 17).
0 Lord, which thy hands have established etc. [ibid]

Quote:

Those who perform what Jacob performed will find rest where he found rest and will be magnified through what he saw.
These are the Companions of the True One, who loved their Lord and whom He loved. You are now the possessors of the place.
Do not do anything to vex God. Praised be the Merciful One whose
mercies are abundant, whose power and good are incalculable." [ibid 3.5]

Quote:

Let us now be in awe at the speech presented by the ANGELS, also by the GLORY. The GLORY said.'The great name is within me and I do not shun him who is rebellious in action. When a man deviates, I forfeit him, and thus it is said of me, "For he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him" (Ex. xxiii. 21) .

The ANGELS also were saying, "O congregation, hold fast to your Lord, and serve in faith, for in our hands is salvation, in our hands destruction, in our hands relief, in our hands weariness, in our hands killing, in our hands love. All this in our hands! Keep guard of yourself and learn the way of the True One. You need not enquire what we have done from Adam to Noah, with Abraham and Lot, with Isaac and the people of Sodom, with Jacob and Joseph
and the great prophet Moses in all that he did.

We were with Adam; we magnified his original status. With Noah we appeared and we honoured him. With Abraham we were when he proclaimed. So with Isaac in his being increased in goodness, and we met Jacob too in a group. We were sent only to these good, perfect ones. You need not enquire about the deed of Lot and the people of Sodom, for they appear (in Scripture) before you.

If you seek knowledge of what they possess, come to Jacob. On the ladder of his dream we were ascending and descending, and the Glory was standing above it. A great Blessing was proclaimed (Gen. xxviii. 1 3 ff.). In his sojourn with Laban and the meeting with Esau we advised him, and the Glory magnified him and blessed him in the Yabbok and at Luz, and announced to him the coming in and the going out, and all this was perfection to him and to his descendants after him, generation after generation.

If you maintain that high status, you will prosper in both worlds, but if you deviate from the way of the True One, then what happened to the people of Sodom will happen to you. Thus the True One wrote, "An overthrow like that of Sodom and Gomorrah"(Dent. xxix. 2 3 ; Targ).

We shall come and bring it about and we shall not appear before exceedingly great judgement is wrought — a judgement with no lack!" Great is the Powerful One who makes us witnesses. Let us bear witness to the truth before the True One, and be upright in every deed — deed without defect, wholly pleasing.

The GLORY too seemed to be saying, "O congregation, keep yourself from me, for is there not before me a mighty deed ? I slew, I oppressed, I destroyed, I made alive, and with you I did all of this when I was at the sea and showed you every wonder and made you to cross with great marvels by the mighty power of God, Observe these actions and apply your mind! Do not rebel (so as to depart) from me (or act) against me. Do not be involved in evil, that you
may be magnified by your Lord and glorified by me, for I would make an end of you form the world of being (if you were to be so involved), and I would bring upon you all kinds of curses and put you in great affliction. If you discipline yourself outwardly and inwardly, secretly and manifestly, you will be in the world above, and a holy and select people. What was promised to your fathers will be effective for you, for our Lord is merciful and pitiful. Thus
He described Himself (Ex. xxxiv. 6; Deut. iv. 3 1 ). [ibid]

Quote:

Abraham planted a garden and proclaimed there in the name of the Lord (Gen. xxi. 33; T a r g . ) , 5 3 the king of the world. Good men have taken refuge in it; there they were glorified. The great prophet Moses planted a sanctuary. All who sought the Lord would gather at it (Ex. xxxiii. 7). So in the Day of Vengeance the great prophet Moses will do and he will deliver the beloved and
destroy all the enemies.

Isaac walked in that way, bringing up children to learn from him. The great prophet Moses fasted and prayed for men, perchance they might be forgiven. God will judge men who forsake their sins and turn back to Him with purity. Jacob hastened in that way and was magnitied with a great vision. The great prophet Moses ascended Mount Sinai and received tablets containing life for the generations. Jacob saw in his dream the angels of heaven manifesting to honour him.

Moses saw manifold wonders arrayed before him, obedient to his command. Jacob saw a ladder and the angels of God were ascending and descending (Gen. xxviii. 1 2 ; Targ.). The great prophet Moses saw them assembled before him to listen and to carry out.

Concerning Jacob it was said, "And behold, the Lord stood above it" (Gen. xxviii. 1 3 ) . Concerning Moses it was said, "The Lord passed before him" (Ex. xxxiv. 6). B y this it is made known that his status has not been given to any other man either before or since him.

Concerning Jacob, He said to him, "I am the Lord" (Gen. xxviii. 13) . He taught him that it had been given to his fathers (ibid.). In connection with Moses He said, "The Lord proclaimed" (Ex. xxxiv. 6).

Where is there the like of Moses and who can compare with Moses, the like of whom has not arisen and never will arise?

For (his works are perfect and) all his ways are just. [ibid 4.3]

Explanation to follow but the key to put it all together is that the Samaritans always identify mount Gerizim with Paradise or Eden. Indeed the Patriarchs are said to have planted the trees which helped establish Paradise on earth. I think this is connected with the kingdom of God but I have to go now ...

Iskander · 02-25-2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I wasn't aware of this but the Marqe (= Mark) seems to think that Jacob not only became transformed by the light he saw emanating from the glory of God at Bethel (= mount Gerizim) but also became intimate with God (like Moses). Here are the relevant passages:

Quote:

It is a special thing that we receive blessings from our Lord, who is merciful and pitiful, doing good to those who love Him. Let us consider Moses, the Man of God, in the sea as he speaks with mighty prophecy—"On thy own mountain" (Ex. xv . 1 7 ) . What is His own? Israel is His own, as He said, "His allotted heritage Israel" (Deut. xxxii. 9 SP LXX). The place for thy abode (Ex. x v . 1 7 ) contains two parts; first the holy place (cf. verse 13 ) , second the angels of God did not cease ascending and descending on it (Gen. xxviii. 1 2 ). Whence is the House of God and the dwelling place for His glory ? There is no Presence anywhere else! [Mimar Marqe 2.10]

Quote:

Abraham planted a garden and proclaimed there in the name of the Lord (Gen. xxi. 33; T a r g . ) , 5 3 the king of the world. Good men have taken refuge in it; there they were glorified. The great prophet Moses planted a sanctuary. All who sought the Lord would gather at it (Ex. xxxiii. 7). So in the Day of Vengeance the great prophet Moses will do and he will deliver the beloved and
destroy all the enemies.

Isaac walked in that way, bringing up children to learn from him. The great prophet Moses fasted and prayed for men, perchance they might be forgiven. God will judge men who forsake their sins and turn back to Him with purity. Jacob hastened in that way and was magnitied with a great vision. The great prophet Moses ascended Mount Sinai and received tablets containing life for the generations. Jacob saw in his dream the angels of heaven manifesting to honour him.

Moses saw manifold wonders arrayed before him, obedient to his command. Jacob saw a ladder and the angels of God were ascending and descending (Gen. xxviii. 1 2 ; Targ.). The great prophet Moses saw them assembled before him to listen and to carry out.

Concerning Jacob it was said, "And behold, the Lord stood above it" (Gen. xxviii. 1 3 ) . Concerning Moses it was said, "The Lord passed before him" (Ex. xxxiv. 6). B y this it is made known that his status has not been given to any other man either before or since him.

Concerning Jacob, He said to him, "I am the Lord" (Gen. xxviii. 13) . He taught him that it had been given to his fathers (ibid.). In connection with Moses He said, "The Lord proclaimed" (Ex. xxxiv. 6).

Where is there the like of Moses and who can compare with Moses, the like of whom has not arisen and never will arise?

For (his works are perfect and) all his ways are just. [ibid 4.3]

Explanation to follow but the key to put it all together is that the Samaritans always identify mount Gerizim with Paradise or Eden. Indeed the Patriarchs are said to have planted the trees which helped establish Paradise on earth. I think this is connected with the kingdom of God but I have to go now ...

Who do you mean by Samaritans?

If this question interrupts your exposition ignore it.

“ In 745 BC Tiglath-pileser III the Assyrian king instituted a policy of mass deportation in the conquered territories of Israel; he transported the population of Israel to Assyria and in their place were established Chaldeans and other tribes from Babylon.

The Second Book of Kings echoes mournfully: ‘So Israel was carried out of their own land to Assyria unto this day…. And the King of Assyria brought down men from Babylon, and from Cuthat, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria and dwelt in the cities thereof.’

There is abundant confirmation of the catastrophe in the archaeological record. At Samaria, the royal quarter was totally destroyed. Megiddo was levelled and new, Assyrian-type buildings set up on the rubble. The walls of Hazor were torn down. Shechem disappeared completely. So did Tirzah.

Thus the first great mass tragedy in Jewish history took place. It was, too, a tragedy unrelieved by ultimate rebirth.”

A History of the Jews
Paul Johnson

stephan huller · 02-25-2012, 04:12 PM

they also use to say that all eastern european jews we're descendants of the khazars ( or at least so my german jewish ancestors). northern italians refer to their southern countrymen as arabs. the list goes on and on

Iskander · 02-26-2012, 04:48 AM

The practice of resettling population groups was a key constituent of the structural set up of Ancient Near Eastern states, including the Assyrian Empire.
Israel was a victim of that policy in ca. 740 BC and Judah later in 586 BC.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sargon/essentia...ssdeportation/

Quote:

Most Mesopotamian sources offer the perspective of the state which ordered the relocation. When relating their military victories in official inscriptions, rulers from the third millennium BC onwards habitually claimed to integrate defeated enemy armies and the inhabitants of subjugated cities and lands into their own realm. The vocabulary used is either that of violence and pillage, fittingly for the context of war, or that of a conscientious gardener, likening people to precious trees that are uprooted and replanted in the best possible circumstances

..................................

Quote:

Populations were relocated within the boundaries of the empire, replacing and being replaced by people who were themselves moved. Our last source, especially, highlights that the state authorities actively encouraged a mixing of the new neighbours: the ultimate goal of the Assyrian resettlement policy was to create a homogeneous population with a shared culture and a common identity - that of "Assyrians"

stephan huller · 02-26-2012, 09:00 AM

right but then jews and samaritans should be assumed to have suffered equally from admixture

Iskander · 02-26-2012, 09:52 AM

Not equally.

The Assyrian deportation only affected Samaria and there was not coming back to the land. Samaria was settled by the people chosen by the Assyrians.

The Babylonian captivity was short and the captives returned to Judah and further the Babylonians did not organise any large alien migration into Judah.

Jews and Samaritans are treated as different people by Jewish sources, for example:” neither a gentile nor a Samaritan may circumcise a Jew, the former because he is not part of the covenant, the latter because he will not perform the ritual with the proper intent”.

Thanks and my apologies for the interruption.

stephan huller · 02-26-2012, 10:53 AM

that's a stupid argument. we don't know what happened to these (alleged) Assyrians. Ezra's narrative referencing divine sanctioning of the slaughter of canaanites can be read as the establishment of a precedent for ethnic cleansing at the beginning of the Persian period. if these things routinely happen today they certainly happened 2500 years ago

Iskander · 02-26-2012, 11:04 AM

You punish us with endless gibberish and with your undigested knowledge.

You lose your cool as a defensive mechanism. It is shameful

stephan huller · 02-26-2012, 11:17 AM

If families who lived in Palestine for centuries were terrorized and driven out in 1947 the fate of the Assyrians 2500 years earlier would have been far worse. I remember a Sephradic partner I once had in a business for about three minutes who hated Palestinians. 'We should kill them all,' he said. 'Yeah, we should build gas chambers for them,' I answered wryly. 'No,' he said quite seriously (not recognizing my sarcasm), 'we can't use gas. Anything but gas.' They didn't have the technology to wipe out the Assyrian population with German efficiency in antiquity but they still had the tried and true method promoted in the Pentateuch

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02-25-2012, 04:12 PM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	they also use to say that all eastern european jews we're descendants of the khazars ( or at least so my german jewish ancestors). northern italians refer to their southern countrymen as arabs. the list goes on and on

02-26-2012, 09:00 AM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	right but then jews and samaritans should be assumed to have suffered equally from admixture

02-26-2012, 09:52 AM	#6
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	Not equally. The Assyrian deportation only affected Samaria and there was not coming back to the land. Samaria was settled by the people chosen by the Assyrians. The Babylonian captivity was short and the captives returned to Judah and further the Babylonians did not organise any large alien migration into Judah. Jews and Samaritans are treated as different people by Jewish sources, for example:” neither a gentile nor a Samaritan may circumcise a Jew, the former because he is not part of the covenant, the latter because he will not perform the ritual with the proper intent”. Thanks and my apologies for the interruption.

02-26-2012, 10:53 AM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	that's a stupid argument. we don't know what happened to these (alleged) Assyrians. Ezra's narrative referencing divine sanctioning of the slaughter of canaanites can be read as the establishment of a precedent for ethnic cleansing at the beginning of the Persian period. if these things routinely happen today they certainly happened 2500 years ago

02-26-2012, 11:04 AM	#8
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	You punish us with endless gibberish and with your undigested knowledge. You lose your cool as a defensive mechanism. It is shameful

02-26-2012, 11:17 AM	#9
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	If families who lived in Palestine for centuries were terrorized and driven out in 1947 the fate of the Assyrians 2500 years earlier would have been far worse. I remember a Sephradic partner I once had in a business for about three minutes who hated Palestinians. 'We should kill them all,' he said. 'Yeah, we should build gas chambers for them,' I answered wryly. 'No,' he said quite seriously (not recognizing my sarcasm), 'we can't use gas. Anything but gas.' They didn't have the technology to wipe out the Assyrian population with German efficiency in antiquity but they still had the tried and true method promoted in the Pentateuch

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