Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Casper · 12-18-2005, 09:26 AM

Hmmm, that certainly poses a problem.

What about the rest of the relationship? Simon/Paul/Marcion?

I'm assuming mostly the mythical characters here, although not ruling out nor completely endorsing any historical characters.

S.C.Carlson · 12-18-2005, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Finally it is a problem that Peregrinus is mentioned by several Christian writers with no hint that he was a follower of Christ. Detering argues that Ad Martyras which is a particular problem for his theory is not by Tertullian but even if he is right I'm not sure it solves the problem. Peregrinus is regarded in Ad Martyras as a pagan philosopher not as any sort of Christian

Thank you, Andrew, for laying this out so clearly. For me, this last point is fatal to the proposed identification.

How about a less ambitious form of Detering's argument, however: how plausible is it that the form of Christianity Peregrinus joined was Marcionite?

Stephen

Casper · 12-20-2005, 05:03 PM

Now, there we go!

Would Marcionite doctrine promote self-immolation? I think they were into the whole martyrdom thing weren't they?

schilling.klaus · 01-12-2008, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

I have read Detering's piece with much interest. It certainly is a different way of looking at things. "Radical" even.

The radical way is the only logically consistent one.

Quote:

Unfortunately, we don't really know all that much about Marcion or Simon Magus to fully evaluate his case that Marcion is the literary genius behind our Paul and that Simon Magus represents the historical kernel to our Paul.

It's not exacty necessary to know who is behind the historical kernel.
It suffices to see that the canonical versions are a chaotic theological hybridisation,
typical for a synthetic compromise of earlier heretical doctrines.
And, as shown by Hegel, the synthesis is preceded by thesis and antithesis.
Before Detering, already P.L. Couchoud proved that the Marcionite reading,
as far as determinable, offers a clear thesis. This proves the priority of the Marcionite
passages. The person of Marcion is irrelevant, what matters is that the core thesis
is close to what the church fathers polemically know as Marcionite heresis.
One may see the priority of such a theology even without invoking the Antimarcionite
polemics by Tertullian, Epiphanius, Adamantius et al.

Quote:

What's problematic to me is to put 1 Clement aside for an investigation into the historical Paul ignoring it as a fake but not do the same for Clementine romances.

no, seeing 1Clement as blatantly late iis the one and only logical attitude
one may have.
Note that the epistle itself was anonymous, and only by in third century did it get assigned to
said martyr bishop.

Quote:

Also, such a late Paul runs into questions about the state of the gospel tradition.

no, it doesn't do so in any way,
as the canonical gospels are forgeries from mid to late second century.
Only Ireneus knew them, so they can't predate him by much.

Quote:

Paul hardly quotes from it, at least in recognizable form. That's not too difficult for the first century or even early in the second century, but by the time we get to Marcion, who we know edited/published his own version of a synoptic gospel,

that's a propagandistic lie by the churchfathers that can't be given any consideration,
as shown by Georges Ory and Hermann Raschke.

Klaus Schilling

schilling.klaus · 01-12-2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

It depends on how much reliability one is willing to credit Irenaeus's genealogies of heresies. Personally, I think it is tendentious wishful thinking on Irenaeus's (or his source's) part, but your mileage may vary.

The tendencious part of Ireneus thinking is that orthodoxy predates heresy.
But as one sees through the redaction history of the Pauline epistles, elucidated by Couchoud
and G.A. van den Bergh van Eysinga, this is not the case.
One could say that Marcion depends on earlier Judaic heresies.
Tracing them through Flavius Josephus, Philo, the Wisdom tradition, and the Talmud
is a really hard challenge, and not much has been done here.

Quote:

Detering makes much hay out of Justin martyr's silence re Paul.

no, it's the one and only logical conclusion one can make from the silence in Justin Martyr.

Quote:

I tend to think that the supposed silence may be related to the fact that Marcion was still rather recent for Justin, making him more reluctant to appeal to Marcion's favorite apostle.

That's not the case,
as Justin Martyr would have used Paul direectly against Marcion
if there hasd been any established canonical Paulinic tradition prior to
Marcion and Justin Martyr.
But JM didn't, thus he and his successor had to invent the canonical epistles
in order to combat Marcion.

Klaus Schilling

schilling.klaus · 01-12-2008, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

Now, there we go!
Would Marcionite doctrine promote self-immolation? I think they were into the whole martyrdom thing weren't they?

It sure would, and more consequently it would promote apokateresis.

Klaus Schillling

schilling.klaus · 01-12-2008, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Klaus Schilling has provided and English summary on Michael Hoffmans' web site.
http://www.egodeath.com/BollandGospelJesus.htm

done hastily, I need to rework this, like many other summaries, at some point.

Klaus Schilling

youngalexander · 01-12-2008, 02:32 AM

Welcome, schilling.klaus
A fun beginning. You seem set to stir the pot!

andrewcriddle · 01-12-2008, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schilling.klaus

[
no, seeing 1Clement as blatantly late iis the one and only logical attitude
one may have.
Note that the epistle itself was anonymous, and only by in third century did it get assigned to
said martyr bishop.

1 Clement is attributed to Clement (of Rome) by Clement (of Alexandria) c 200 CE http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/A...#P6595_2009319

Quote:

Moreover, in the Epistle to the Corinthians, the Apostle Clement also, drawing a picture of the Gnostic, says: "For who that has sojourned among you has not proved your perfect and firm faith? and has not admired your sound and gentle piety? and has not celebrated the munificent style of your hospitality? and has not felicitated your complete and sure knowledge? For ye did all things impartially, and walked in the ordinances of God; "and so forth.

Then more clearly: "Let us fix our eyes on those who have yielded perfect service to His magnificent glory. Let us take Enoch, who, being by his obedience found righteous, was translated; and Noah, who, having believed, was saved; and Abraham, who for his faith and hospitality was called the friend of God, and was the father of Isaac." "For hospitality and piety, Lot was saved from Sodom." "For faith and hospitality, Rahab the harlot was saved." "From patience and faith they walked about in goat-skins, and sheep-skins, and folds of camels' hair, proclaiming the kingdom of Christ. We name His prophets Elias, and Eliseus, and Ezekiel, and John."

"For Abraham, who for his free faith was called` the friend of God, 'was not elated by glory, but modestly said, `I am dust and ashes.' And of Job it is thus written: `Job was just and blameless, true and pious, abstaining from all evil.'" He it was who overcame the tempter by patience, and at once testified and was testified to by God; who keeps hold of humility, and says, "No one is pure from defilement, not even if his life were but for one day." "Moses, `the servant who was faithful in all his house, 'said to Him who uttered the oracles from the bush, `Who am I, that Thou sendest me? I am slow of speech, and of a stammering tongue, 'to minister the voice of God in human speech. And again: `I am smoke from a pot.'""For God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble."

"David too, of whom the Lord, testifying, says, `I found a man after my own heart, David the son of Jesse. With my holy oil I anointed him.' But he also says to God, `Pity me, O God, according to Thy mercy; and according to the multitude of Thy tender mercies, blot out my transgression. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I know my transgression, and my sin is ever before me.'" Then, alluding to sin which is not subject to the law, in the exercise of the moderation of true knowledge, he adds, "Against Thee only have I sinned, and done evil in Thy sight." For the Scripture somewhere says, "The Spirit of the Lord is a lamp, searching the recesses of the belly." And the more of a Gnostic a man becomes by doing right, the nearer is the illuminating Spirit to him. "Thus the Lord draws near to the righteous, and none of the thoughts and reasonings of which we are the authors escape Him-I mean the Lord Jesus," the scrutinizer by His omnipotent will of our heart, "whose blood was consecrated for us. Let us therefore respect those who are over us, and reverence the elders; let us honour the young, and let us teach the discipline of God." For blessed is he who shah do and teach the Lord's commands worthily; and he is of a magnanimous mind, and of a mind contemplative of truth. "Let us direct our wives to what is good; let them exhibit," says he, "the lovable disposition of chastity; let them show the guileless will of their meekness; let them manifest the gentleness of their tongue by silence; let them give their love not according to their inclinations, but equal love in sanctity to all i that fear God. Let our children share in the discipline that is in Christ; let them learn what humility avails before God; what is the power of holy love before God, how lovely and great is the fear of the Lord, saving all that walk in it holily; with a pure heart: for He is the Searcher of the thoughts and sentiments, whose breath is in us, and when He wills He will take it away."

"Now all those things are confirmed by the faith that is in Christ.`Come, ye children, 'says the Lord, `hearken to me, and I will teach you the fear of the Lord. Who is the man that desireth life, that loveth to see good days? ' Then He subjoins the gnostic mystery of the numbers seven and eight.`Stop thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile. Depart from evil, and do good. Seek peace, and pursue it.'166 For in these words He alludes to knowledge (gnosis), with abstinence from evil and the doing of what is good, teaching that it is to be perfected by word and deed.` The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and His ears are to their prayer. But the face of God is against those thai do evil, to root out their memory from the earth. The righteous cried, and the Lord heard, and delivered him out of all his distresses.' ` Many are the stripes of sinners; but those who hope in the Lord, mercy shall compass about.'" "A multitude of mercy," he nobly says, "surrounds him that trusts in the Lord."

For it is written in the Epistle to the Corinthians, "Through Jesus Christ our foolish and darkened mind springs up to the light. By Him the Sovereign Lord wished us to taste the knowledge that is immortal." And, showing more expressly the peculiar nature of knowledge, he added: "These things, then, being clear to us, looking into the depths of divine knowledge, we ought to do all things in order which the Sovereign Lord commanded us to perform at the appointed seasons. Let the wise man, then, show his wisdom not in words only, but in good deeds. Let the humble not testify to himself, but allow testimony to be borne to him by another. Let not him who is pure in the flesh boast, knowing that it is another who furnishes him with continence. Ye see, brethren, that the more we are subjected to peril, the more knowledge are we counted worthy of."

Andrew Criddle

ETA

See also Irenaeus c 180 CE http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/A...#P7297_1937859

Quote:

The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things.

See also Dionysius of Corinth c 175 CE according to Eusebius http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf....ix.xxiii.html

Quote:

In this same epistle he makes mention also of Clement’s epistle to the Corinthians, showing that it had been the custom from the beginning to read it in the church. His words are as follows: “To-day we have passed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.”

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12-18-2005, 09:26 AM	#131
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	Hmmm, that certainly poses a problem. What about the rest of the relationship? Simon/Paul/Marcion? I'm assuming mostly the mythical characters here, although not ruling out nor completely endorsing any historical characters.

12-20-2005, 05:03 PM	#133
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	Now, there we go! Would Marcionite doctrine promote self-immolation? I think they were into the whole martyrdom thing weren't they?

01-12-2008, 02:32 AM	#138
youngalexander Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mornington Peninsula Posts: 1,306	Welcome, schilling.klaus A fun beginning. You seem set to stir the pot!

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