Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 01-01-2005, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badfish

So you admit you are uneducated on some issues, so it seems you want to spite him because of personal reasons rather than opening your mind and listening to possible wisdom.

The possibility of obtaining "personal wisdom" from exchanges with an advocate of religious authoritarianism is remote.

Quote:

I mean whats worse? A Christian who believes based on faith, or an atheist that doesn't believe, but isnt sure why? If you dont have the intellectual resources yet, how can you be honest with yourself about the possibility of God? Let alone defend atheism? If you feel so strongly, take him on, ah but then you might lose the debate. Bummer.

You missed that boat totally. The debate is not over the existence of gods, but the reliability of the biblical record. That is a topic that may require specialized knowledge. One can know the correct answer without knowing why, just as I know that if I have a child by my wife, it will have a chance at having a predisposition to diabetes, although I can't explain in detail because I don't know the genetics.

Vorkosigan

jonesg · 01-01-2005, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badfish

And not all fundies condemn anyone to hell, its not my place or anyone elses place to judge, fundies or Christians that make such condemnations are wrong and are missing the message of Gods word, the bible clearly states that basically we all fall short and are in no position to judge lest we be judged ourselves.

I am a moderate conservative Christian (people around here and elsewhere might refer to me as a fundie) but I would side with you on the one issue of judgement, I mean its just silly as a Christian to think you are any better than anyone else, and can sit on the judgement seat, yes we are called to spread the word, but not to condemn.

Many atheists mistake judgement for spreading the word, a Christian who points out that the bible says (insert condemnation or sin here) will cause you go to hell isnt necessarily condemning, but rather teaching that the bible is clear on what criteria will cause you to be cast into hell.

Then there are some that will outright judge, that alone is diametric to Christs teachings on salvation, I dont know why they think they can judge, but certainly there are some that believe themselves to be elitists of some sort and can judge on Gods behalf, if there is a God and Satan, it seems that anyone so hellbent on judging people outright would be most likely acting on behalf of Satan.

Christians who judge know nothing of God, they think they are God.

Quick story, I was in Russia a couple of yrs ago, the girls are, shall I say sexy compared to the US. I was joking with my buddy's girlfreind , saying her dress was way too sexy.
She smiled and said "God is the one who will judge, not you".

After 50 yrs of communism they have a better grasp on who does the judging than many or most Christians in the free world.
Ironic.

Vorkosigan · 01-01-2005, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Many atheists mistake judgement for spreading the word, a Christian who points out that the bible says (insert condemnation or sin here) will cause you go to hell isnt necessarily condemning, but rather teaching that the bible is clear on what criteria will cause you to be cast into hell.

That's because spreading the word is condemnation, badfish. Christianity is schadenfreude on a galactic scale -- basically the impoverished, the dull, and the narrow minded taking joy in the fact that everyone else is going to burn. "They'll get it someday!" That's the function of conservative Christianity of course -- pap fed to the ignorant so that they can be mobilized to vote for their own oppression.

"Spreading the word" is simply one way of internalizing the apparatus of control; most forms of authoritarianism (Communism, Islam, Facism) offer similar systems. "Spreading the word" has a twofold function: it gathers more victims for the apparatus of control, and also enables the system to further its grip on the individual's mind, both through internalization of ideas and habits the authority system would like the victim to inscribe upon the Self, and through the experience of rejection, which further convinces the victim that the System must be right, assuming the victim has properly internalized the System's scripts. All authoritarianisms use exactly the same system, though they all have the different terminologies.

You speak of "spreading the word" badfish, but we on this side only hear the finger of the claw of Mordor. For those of who have lived in, and fought, police states, your System is simply one more variation on evils we have already become intimate with.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonesg

After 50 yrs of communism they have a better grasp on who does the judging than many or most Christians in the free world.
Ironic.

A sample population of one. Definitely good for grand generalizations. <sigh>

Vorkosigan

Jedi Mind Trick · 01-01-2005, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badfish

So you admit you are uneducated on some issues, so it seems you want to spite him because of personal reasons rather than opening your mind and listening to possible wisdom. If you are still learning about some of these "issues" than you clearly do not have the evidence or knowledge to debate this person and want to be bailed out by your fellow infidels.

I mean whats worse? A Christian who believes based on faith, or an atheist that doesn't believe, but isnt sure why? If you dont have the intellectual resources yet, how can you be honest with yourself about the possibility of God? Let alone defend atheism? If you feel so strongly, take him on, ah but then you might lose the debate. Bummer.

First off Badfish, This guy loves debate... I and a number of others over there have been debating him on a host of issues for several months. He started a thread about biblical textual reliability, I know a (very) little bit about this, enough to be suspicious, however I do not know all of the nuts and bolts that people here like Vorkosigan and DTcynic know.

As I said, I am Agnostic; a recent deconvert. My deconversion was more affected by the things that I do know about Christian doctrine and history and not so much about text critical issues.

Even though I cannot get to the technical issues on the topic I can still spot poor reasoning... Besides, it's more of a discussion than a debate.

Jedi Mind Trick · 01-01-2005, 08:35 AM

Hey, whatever is a discussion board for if not for discussion?

01-01-2005, 02:05 PM

I'll say one thing. That ProEvangelical guy over on the other board sure does have an annoying way of formatting his messages.

Make one's eyes hurt.

Jedi Mind Trick · 01-01-2005, 04:03 PM

You should try quoting from his posts... He puts all kinds of code for colors and size, underline and bolding... It really gets frustrating when he takes your posts apart sentence by sentence and places them in his format. I guess this is why he will be online for hours, seemingly unresponsive to any rebuttal.

To each their own I guess...

Jedi Mind Trick · 01-01-2005, 04:31 PM

One more thing, Badfish... You asked:

Quote:

If you don’t have the intellectual resources yet, how can you be honest with yourself about the possibility of God?

My choice for leaving was much more informed than my choice for believing.

Textual criticism didn’t a believer of me make. Emotional appeal and the credulity of youth were the main factors.

Also, I am not a defender of anything except free inquiry and my right to freethought and to challenge “the truth,�? all of them.

Badfish · 01-01-2005, 09:52 PM

Yeah ok. I see.

I couldnt go through that whole thread I have ADHD. His posts were giving me an anxiety attack.

Badfish · 01-01-2005, 09:55 PM

But generally I would have to say that the bible is for the the most part historically correct, from a neutral standpoint. I dont see any reason to believe it isn't. Its just a little more supernatural than normal historical documents.

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01-01-2005, 08:35 AM	#15
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Hey, whatever is a discussion board for if not for discussion?

01-01-2005, 02:05 PM	#16
getconfzd Guest Posts: n/a	I'll say one thing. That ProEvangelical guy over on the other board sure does have an annoying way of formatting his messages. Make one's eyes hurt.

01-01-2005, 04:03 PM	#17
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	You should try quoting from his posts... He puts all kinds of code for colors and size, underline and bolding... It really gets frustrating when he takes your posts apart sentence by sentence and places them in his format. I guess this is why he will be online for hours, seemingly unresponsive to any rebuttal. To each their own I guess...

01-01-2005, 09:52 PM	#19
Badfish Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Death Valley, CA Posts: 1,738	Yeah ok. I see. I couldnt go through that whole thread I have ADHD. His posts were giving me an anxiety attack.

01-01-2005, 09:55 PM	#20
Badfish Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Death Valley, CA Posts: 1,738	But generally I would have to say that the bible is for the the most part historically correct, from a neutral standpoint. I dont see any reason to believe it isn't. Its just a little more supernatural than normal historical documents.

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