Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 02-01-2011, 03:04 AM

There have been a number of threads that have examined the sources and other evidence in support of the reported persecution of "Early Christians" by the Roman Emperors between Nero and Diocletian.

An index of non archived threads is here.
An index of archived threads is here.

I have started an index of these reported persecutions by Roman Emperor at this page in order to draw together all the evidence for this traditional belief.

If you personally think this persecution happened, what item of evidence most impresses you with its authenticity?

Steve Weiss · 02-01-2011, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

There have been a number of threads that have examined the sources and other evidence in support of the reported persecution of "Early Christians" by the Roman Emperors between Nero and Diocletian.

An index of non archived threads is here.
An index of archived threads is here.

I have started an index of these reported persecutions by Roman Emperor at this page in order to draw together all the evidence for this traditional belief.

If you personally think this persecution happened, what item of evidence most impresses you with its authenticity?

As is usual with ancient history, it is difficult to separate fact from myth, and I have my doubts about early Christian persecution. Also, at what date did early Christians stop being Jews and become a unique non-Jewish sect? In any case, what is your view of this alleged persecution?

avi · 02-01-2011, 05:54 AM

The three groups that immediately spring to mind, when discussing persecution in Rome in the first three centuries of the common era, are the Jews, the Manichaeans, and the Christians.

1. What would be reliable sources of information from that era?
2. How could we differentiate religious persecution, from simple plunder?
3. How could we establish a credible, internal threat to the emperor's rule, leading to the persecution, as opposed to a subversive, externally driven plot?

Is the persecution widespread, does it extend beyond Rome to the outlying districts? It was noteworthy, I think, that Dura Europos, a Roman fortress, governed by a military presence, tolerated not only Jews but also Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, Palmyrenism, and a plethora of other, even more exotic sects....

Of course, Dura Europos may have been the exception, perhaps in other communities, like Alexandria, for example, or Caesarea, one has better evidence, suggestive of religious intolerance and consequent persecution.

I don't accept the idea that events within Rome itself, necessarily translate into foreign policy carried out uniformly throughout the Roman Empire, from Edinburg to Seville, from Mainz to Damascus. For one thing, several times, during those first three centuries, prior to Constantine's ascendancy, the empire was split up, under the control of two or three, or even four military commanders. Those guys would not have had a uniform response, and also would not have been inclined to follow rigidly any orders coming from a corrupt and dissolute senate in Rome.

avi

mountainman · 02-01-2011, 07:01 AM

According to the WIKI's Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire there is a sequence of nine Roman Emperor's to be considered. The article starts as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

The first documented case of imperially-supervised persecution of the Christians in the Roman Empire begins with Nero

Below I have listed the Roman Emperor (the years they ruled) and the Sources of evidence in our possession by which it is generally believed that such a persecution happened. This may not be anywhere near complete, so if you know another source not mentioned, please speak up ....

DRAFT: February 2011

[T2]{r:bg=lightgray}{c:bg=slategray;ah=center}Roman Emperor
|
{c:ah=center}Years Ruled CE
|
{c:ah=center}Sources/Evidence of "Christian Persecution"
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}1. Nero
|
64 to 68
|
Tacitus' Annals XV.44 (11th century - second Medicean manuscript); Suetonius, Lives, Nero, 16;
Early Christian writers such as Tertullian, Lactantius, Sulpicius Severus, Eusebius, St. Augustine
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}2. Domitian
|
89 to 96
|
Dio Cassius (67.14.1-2); execution of Flavius Clemens, a Roman consul and cousin of the Emperor, and the banishment of his wife, Flavia Domitilla, to the island of Pandateria, for "atheism" ("athotes") and practising Jewish customs ("ta ton Ioudaion"). Also there is the Anonymous Author of the Acts of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist John the Theologian
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}3. Trajan
|
98 to 117
|
Pliny, Letters 10.96; Trajan in Pliny, Letters 10.97
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}4. Marcus Aurelius
|
161 to 180
|
Lyon (177 CE), Eusebius HE, 5.1.5,7.
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}5. Septimius Severus
|
193 to 211
|
Clement of Alexandria; Perpetua and Felicity; Leonides
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}6. Maximinus the Thracian
|
235 to 235
|
Pope Pontian and Hippolytus banished to the island of Sardinia.
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}7. Decius
|
249 to 251
|
edict 249 and 250 CE re: sacrifice to the emperor with certificate (libellus)
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}8. Valerian
|
253 to 260
|
edict (257 CE); P. Oxy 3035 (256 CE).
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}9. Diocletian and Galerius
|
284 to 305
|
Eusebius VC and HE
[/T2]

mountainman · 02-01-2011, 07:37 AM

Interpreting Christian history: the challenge of the churches' past by Euan Cameron (2005)

Quote:

p.16:

It is generally agreed that there was no organised, general, centrally directed persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire before the edict of Emperor Decius in 249, which then only remained in effect until 251 CE ... The only prolonged and very widespread "great persecution" of Christians was that initiated by Diocletian (puzzlingly, long into his reign) in 303 CE. It lasted until 305 in the West, but continued until 311 in the East.

This opinion suggests the persecutions claimed under the above Roman Emperors 1 through 6 (i.e. before Decius) are of dubious likelihood, and suggests that the small duration persecution under Decius (#6), and the "Great Persecution" under Diocletian (#9) have some historicity.

avi · 02-01-2011, 07:57 AM

Thanks, Pete, great chart, lots of work, well done.

avi

Juststeve · 02-01-2011, 07:59 AM

Mountainman:

It seems that there may have been a number of persecutions of Christians that would not qualify as organized, general, centrally directed persecution of Christians. That being so why discount persecutions under Nero through Maximinus?

Steve

stephan huller · 02-01-2011, 08:42 AM

There is spotty evidence for Christian persecution under Commodus (which is generally discounted because the Catholic Church was being favored in the same period = a 'golden age' for orthodoxy says Eusebius). But the persecutions were real. Also the whole world was 'being persecuted' by his terrible rule so the carnage just blends in with the contemporary bloodbath.

The Samaritan historian Abu'l Fath points to massive Samaritan persecutions under Commodus and Decius. There may have been more but that's all he knows about.

mountainman · 02-02-2011, 07:07 AM

Thanks I have added Commodus and also another column to gather up the names of the legendary figures of the martyrs that have been preserved in either legend or history. I have taken this material from this source in order to use it to track the sources for the information.

A further column has been added to identify authors who have made a study of these specific persecutions, but have rejected their historicity, for one reason or another. Arguments against the historicity of each of these supposed persecutions will be tabulated here. If you are aware of any, speak up. I have made a start only.

DRAFT: February 2011

[T2]{r:bg=lightgray}{c:bg=slategray;ah=center}Roman Emperor
|
{c:ah=center}Years Ruled CE
|
{c:ah=center}Sources/Evidence of "Christian Persecution"
|
Notable Christians executed
|
Arguments Against the historicity of the Persecution
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}1. Nero
|
64 to 68
|
Tacitus' Annals XV.44 (11th century - second Medicean manuscript); Suetonius, Lives, Nero, 16;
Early Christian writers such as Tertullian, Lactantius, Sulpicius Severus, Eusebius, St. Augustine
|
Any names here?
|
Arthur Drews, Jay Raskin, Earl Doherty (others???)
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}2. Domitian
|
89 to 96
|
Dio Cassius (67.14.1-2); execution of Flavius Clemens, a Roman consul and cousin of the Emperor, and the banishment of his wife, Flavia Domitilla, to the island of Pandateria, for "atheism" ("athotes") and practising Jewish customs ("ta ton Ioudaion"). Also there is the Anonymous Author of the Acts of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist John the Theologian
|
Dionysius the Areopagite (the appointed Bishop of Athens); Timothy the disciple of Paul and Bishop of Ephesus; Simeon, Bishop of Jerusalem; and Nicomedes, a Christian of distinction at Rome.
|
Many people reject the Dio Cassius reference as not christian.
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}3. Trajan
|
98 to 117
|
Pliny, Letters 10.96; Trajan in Pliny, Letters 10.97
|
Phocas, Bishop of Pontus; Alexander, Bishop of Rome; and Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch (traditionally one of the children Christ held in his arms; a disciple of the Apostle John).
|
Is the Pliny correspondence legit? Meaning of deaconesses in Pliny
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}4. Marcus Aurelius
|
161 to 180
|
Lyon (177 CE), Eusebius HE, 5.1.5,7.
|
Justin Martyr, the Philosopher; Appolonius a Roman Senator; Fructuosus, Bishop of Tarragon on the east coast of Spain; and Polycarpus, a convert of the Apostle John who served the Lord for 60 years as a prominent teacher and evangelist. He died a martyr at age 86.
|
Jay Raskin (Eusebius forged the Lyon letter)
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}5. Commodus, Pertinax, and Julianus
|
200 to 201
|
Sources?
|
Leonidas, father of Origen, and two of Origen's friends (Plutarchus and Serenus).
|
Generally discounted because the Catholic Church was being favored in the same period = a 'golden age' for orthodoxy says Eusebius (stephan huller)
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}6. Septimius Severus
|
193 to 211
|
Sources?
|
Clement of Alexandria; Perpetua and Felicity; Leonides
|
.
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}7. Maximinus and Gordian
|
235 to 235
|
Pope Pontian and Hippolytus banished to the island of Sardinia. The Roman Senator Pammachius, his entire family, and 42 others were all beheaded in a single day and their heads spiked on the city gates. Also executed were Senator Simplicius; Quiritus, a Roman nobleman. and his entire family; Martina a noblewoman; and Hippolitus, a Christian prelate.
|
Pontianus, Bishop of Rome, Anteros (his succesor), Pammachius, etc
|
.
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}8. Decius
|
249 to 251
|
edict 249 and 250 CE re: sacrifice to the emperor with certificate (libellus)
|
Fabian, Bishop of Rome, Cyril, Bishop of Gortyna on Crete; Babylas, Bishop of Antioch; and Alexander, Bishop of Jerusalem. Origen was tortured but not executed.
|
Do we have the edict? What does it actually say?
None of these libelli have been shown to have any relation to "christianity".
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}9. Valerian
|
253 to 260
|
edict (257 CE); P. Oxy 3035 (256 CE).
|
Stephen, Sextus, and Laurentius, Bishops of Rome, and Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage. Laurentius (St. Lawrence) was archdeacon under Sextus.
|
Do we have the edict? What does it actually say?
P. Oxy 3035 refers to a "ChrEstian" (Or was it something else avi?)
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}10. Aurelian and Diocletian (through his co-ruler Maximian)
|
270 to 270
|
Sources? Maximian executed an entire legion of 6000 soldiers (The Theban Legion) when they refused to join a sacrifice because they had accepted Christ;
|
St. Alban of England at Verulam, now St. Albans
|
The Theban Legion legend is stretching credulity to the limit. Is this Eusebius finding more documents?
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}11. Diocletian and Galerius
|
284 to 305
|
Eusebius VC and HE
|
St. Sebastian and St. George of England executed?
|
The persecution was triggered off by Christians interfering with the Oracles of Apollo by "special powers". The oracles had fallen silent because of the "Righteous Ones" were present. Diocletian asked his priests who these "Righteous Ones" were. The Priest of Apollo declared them to be the "Christians". Diocletian got real mad and started stomping on christians. This appears similar to a Public Relations exercise to make the previous government of Diocletian look bad. Its typical of new revolutionary governments to run a smear campaign against the old brigade.
[/T2]

mountainman · 02-02-2011, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

In any case, what is your view of this alleged persecution?

On the basis of the evidence I have looked at so far
I think it was a PR exercise by the 4th century church.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Gibbon Esquire

After the church had triumphed over all her enemies,
the interest as well as vanity of the captives
prompted them to magnify the merit of their respective suffering.

A convenient distance of time and place
gave an ample scope to the progress of fiction;
and the frequent instances which might be alleged of holy martyrs,
whose wounds had been instantly healed,
whose strength had been renewed,
and whose lost members had miraculously been restored,
were extremely convenient for the purpose
of removing every difficulty, and of silencing every objection.

The most extravagant legends,
as they conduced to the honour of the church,
were applauded by the incredulous multitude,
countenanced by the power of the clergy,
and attested by the suspicious evidence of ecclesiastical history.

Edward Gibbon, (1776)
History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire

02-01-2011, 03:04 AM	#1
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	The Imperial Persecution of "Early Christians" - A Critical Review of the evidence There have been a number of threads that have examined the sources and other evidence in support of the reported persecution of "Early Christians" by the Roman Emperors between Nero and Diocletian. An index of non archived threads is here. An index of archived threads is here. I have started an index of these reported persecutions by Roman Emperor at this page in order to draw together all the evidence for this traditional belief. If you personally think this persecution happened, what item of evidence most impresses you with its authenticity?

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02-01-2011, 05:54 AM	#3
avi Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Location: eastern North America Posts: 1,468	The three groups that immediately spring to mind, when discussing persecution in Rome in the first three centuries of the common era, are the Jews, the Manichaeans, and the Christians. 1. What would be reliable sources of information from that era? 2. How could we differentiate religious persecution, from simple plunder? 3. How could we establish a credible, internal threat to the emperor's rule, leading to the persecution, as opposed to a subversive, externally driven plot? Is the persecution widespread, does it extend beyond Rome to the outlying districts? It was noteworthy, I think, that Dura Europos, a Roman fortress, governed by a military presence, tolerated not only Jews but also Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, Palmyrenism, and a plethora of other, even more exotic sects.... Of course, Dura Europos may have been the exception, perhaps in other communities, like Alexandria, for example, or Caesarea, one has better evidence, suggestive of religious intolerance and consequent persecution. I don't accept the idea that events within Rome itself, necessarily translate into foreign policy carried out uniformly throughout the Roman Empire, from Edinburg to Seville, from Mainz to Damascus. For one thing, several times, during those first three centuries, prior to Constantine's ascendancy, the empire was split up, under the control of two or three, or even four military commanders. Those guys would not have had a uniform response, and also would not have been inclined to follow rigidly any orders coming from a corrupt and dissolute senate in Rome. avi

02-01-2011, 07:57 AM	#6
avi Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Location: eastern North America Posts: 1,468	Thanks, Pete, great chart, lots of work, well done. avi

02-01-2011, 07:59 AM	#7
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Mountainman: It seems that there may have been a number of persecutions of Christians that would not qualify as organized, general, centrally directed persecution of Christians. That being so why discount persecutions under Nero through Maximinus? Steve

02-01-2011, 08:42 AM	#8
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	There is spotty evidence for Christian persecution under Commodus (which is generally discounted because the Catholic Church was being favored in the same period = a 'golden age' for orthodoxy says Eusebius). But the persecutions were real. Also the whole world was 'being persecuted' by his terrible rule so the carnage just blends in with the contemporary bloodbath. The Samaritan historian Abu'l Fath points to massive Samaritan persecutions under Commodus and Decius. There may have been more but that's all he knows about.

02-02-2011, 07:07 AM	#9
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Thanks I have added Commodus and also another column to gather up the names of the legendary figures of the martyrs that have been preserved in either legend or history. I have taken this material from this source in order to use it to track the sources for the information. A further column has been added to identify authors who have made a study of these specific persecutions, but have rejected their historicity, for one reason or another. Arguments against the historicity of each of these supposed persecutions will be tabulated here. If you are aware of any, speak up. I have made a start only. DRAFT: February 2011 [T2]{r:bg=lightgray}{c:bg=slategray;ah=center}Roman Emperor \| {c:ah=center}Years Ruled CE \| {c:ah=center}Sources/Evidence of "Christian Persecution" \| Notable Christians executed \| Arguments Against the historicity of the Persecution \|\| {c:bg=RoyalBlue}1. Nero \| 64 to 68 \| Tacitus' Annals XV.44 (11th century - second Medicean manuscript); Suetonius, Lives, Nero, 16; Early Christian writers such as Tertullian, Lactantius, Sulpicius Severus, Eusebius, St. Augustine \| Any names here? \| Arthur Drews, Jay Raskin, Earl Doherty (others???) \|\| {c:bg=RoyalBlue}2. Domitian \| 89 to 96 \| Dio Cassius (67.14.1-2); execution of Flavius Clemens, a Roman consul and cousin of the Emperor, and the banishment of his wife, Flavia Domitilla, to the island of Pandateria, for "atheism" ("athotes") and practising Jewish customs ("ta ton Ioudaion"). Also there is the Anonymous Author of the Acts of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist John the Theologian \| Dionysius the Areopagite (the appointed Bishop of Athens); Timothy the disciple of Paul and Bishop of Ephesus; Simeon, Bishop of Jerusalem; and Nicomedes, a Christian of distinction at Rome. \| Many people reject the Dio Cassius reference as not christian. \|\| {c:bg=RoyalBlue}3. Trajan \| 98 to 117 \| Pliny, Letters 10.96; Trajan in Pliny, Letters 10.97 \| Phocas, Bishop of Pontus; Alexander, Bishop of Rome; and Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch (traditionally one of the children Christ held in his arms; a disciple of the Apostle John). \| Is the Pliny correspondence legit? Meaning of deaconesses in Pliny \|\| {c:bg=RoyalBlue}4. Marcus Aurelius \| 161 to 180 \| Lyon (177 CE), Eusebius HE, 5.1.5,7. \| Justin Martyr, the Philosopher; Appolonius a Roman Senator; Fructuosus, Bishop of Tarragon on the east coast of Spain; and Polycarpus, a convert of the Apostle John who served the Lord for 60 years as a prominent teacher and evangelist. He died a martyr at age 86. \| Jay Raskin (Eusebius forged the Lyon letter) \|\| {c:bg=RoyalBlue}5. Commodus, Pertinax, and Julianus \| 200 to 201 \| Sources? \| Leonidas, father of Origen, and two of Origen's friends (Plutarchus and Serenus). \| Generally discounted because the Catholic Church was being favored in the same period = a 'golden age' for orthodoxy says Eusebius (stephan huller) \|\| {c:bg=RoyalBlue}6. Septimius Severus \| 193 to 211 \| Sources? \| Clement of Alexandria; Perpetua and Felicity; Leonides \| . \|\| {c:bg=RoyalBlue}7. Maximinus and Gordian \| 235 to 235 \| Pope Pontian and Hippolytus banished to the island of Sardinia. The Roman Senator Pammachius, his entire family, and 42 others were all beheaded in a single day and their heads spiked on the city gates. Also executed were Senator Simplicius; Quiritus, a Roman nobleman. and his entire family; Martina a noblewoman; and Hippolitus, a Christian prelate. \| Pontianus, Bishop of Rome, Anteros (his succesor), Pammachius, etc \| . \|\| {c:bg=RoyalBlue}8. Decius \| 249 to 251 \| edict 249 and 250 CE re: sacrifice to the emperor with certificate (libellus) \| Fabian, Bishop of Rome, Cyril, Bishop of Gortyna on Crete; Babylas, Bishop of Antioch; and Alexander, Bishop of Jerusalem. Origen was tortured but not executed. \| Do we have the edict? What does it actually say? None of these libelli have been shown to have any relation to "christianity". \|\| {c:bg=RoyalBlue}9. Valerian \| 253 to 260 \| edict (257 CE); P. Oxy 3035 (256 CE). \| Stephen, Sextus, and Laurentius, Bishops of Rome, and Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage. Laurentius (St. Lawrence) was archdeacon under Sextus. \| Do we have the edict? What does it actually say? P. Oxy 3035 refers to a "ChrEstian" (Or was it something else avi?) \|\| {c:bg=RoyalBlue}10. Aurelian and Diocletian (through his co-ruler Maximian) \| 270 to 270 \| Sources? Maximian executed an entire legion of 6000 soldiers (The Theban Legion) when they refused to join a sacrifice because they had accepted Christ; \| St. Alban of England at Verulam, now St. Albans \| The Theban Legion legend is stretching credulity to the limit. Is this Eusebius finding more documents? \|\| {c:bg=RoyalBlue}11. Diocletian and Galerius \| 284 to 305 \| Eusebius VC and HE \| St. Sebastian and St. George of England executed? \| The persecution was triggered off by Christians interfering with the Oracles of Apollo by "special powers". The oracles had fallen silent because of the "Righteous Ones" were present. Diocletian asked his priests who these "Righteous Ones" were. The Priest of Apollo declared them to be the "Christians". Diocletian got real mad and started stomping on christians. This appears similar to a Public Relations exercise to make the previous government of Diocletian look bad. Its typical of new revolutionary governments to run a smear campaign against the old brigade. [/T2]

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