Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magdlyn · 08-09-2007, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Condraz23

...most theists tend to be creationists.

No, they don't. The huge majority of Christians are not fundamentalists/literalists. Quite often, they give lip service to the "7 days" of creation, but somehow modify that by saying they believe in the Big Bang and evolution as well. Saying the first days each equaled however many millions of years, etc.

Or, they just discount Genesis as myth, while hanging on to their "belief" in God and "faith" in Jeezy Creezy. Just in case...

Worldtraveller · 08-09-2007, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Condraz23

...most theists tend to be creationists.

No, they don't. The huge majority of Christians are not fundamentalists/literalists. Quite often, they give lip service to the "7 days" of creation, but somehow modify that by saying they believe in the Big Bang and evolution as well. Saying the first days each equaled however many millions of years, etc.

I think Condraz23 is right. Dpending on where you are located geographically of course. In the US, polls consistently show a majority (56-59%) of people believe in a literal creation of humans. Of course, some are old earth (god created the univers, et al. a long time ago, but just created humans recently) and many are young earth.

The US ranked second worse (from a scientific standpoint) behind Turkey in a similar poll conducted worldwide.

Cheers,
Lane

Faid · 08-09-2007, 06:16 AM

Well, dave? Read any "evilushun" books cover to cover lately? No?

Bye, dave.

Donnmathan · 08-09-2007, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worldtraveller

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

No, they don't. The huge majority of Christians are not fundamentalists/literalists. Quite often, they give lip service to the "7 days" of creation, but somehow modify that by saying they believe in the Big Bang and evolution as well. Saying the first days each equaled however many millions of years, etc.

I think Condraz23 is right. Dpending on where you are located geographically of course. In the US, polls consistently show a majority (56-59%) of people believe in a literal creation of humans. Of course, some are old earth (god created the univers, et al. a long time ago, but just created humans recently) and many are young earth.

The US ranked second worse (from a scientific standpoint) behind Turkey in a similar poll conducted worldwide.

Cheers,
Lane

Beg to differ, but most of the polls I've seen word it one of two ways - either "do you believe in evolution," which is a ridiculous statement itself, or "do you believe god create man in his image," or some close variation. Neither of those two questions has anything to do with a literal belief in Genesis. The second one establishes a belief in a creator-being (ala ID), but not a literal Genesis. I'd be willing to be that the true proportion of literalists is fairly low, even in this fool country. Gotta love a place that protects peoples' right to be absolute morons, eh?

Julian · 08-09-2007, 10:56 AM

Yes, I have read it, of course. I am now slowly (so very, very slowly) re-reading the NT in Greek.

One comment on an earlier point. It was pointed out that the bible was the all-time best-seller. I would like to oppose that point. While it may be true that it has sold 6 billion copies, look at the time it has taken it to do so! It is an abysmal performance record. Let's say it has been available for 2000 years. I know it has been longer for some of the books and slightly fewer for others, this is not important since my point will be amply illustrated even without the accuracy. This comes out to about 3 million copies per year! Harry Potter and the Half-blood Prince, just for an example, blows the bible away with more than 21 million copies sold per year. Let's check the list again in 2000 years and see where other books are at after an equal amount of time. My money is on Rowling over god, anytime.

Julian

Hex · 08-09-2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Condraz23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donnmathan

Why are you relating "Origin of Species" directly to atheism? A more accurate parallel would be biologists reading "Origin", which I would hope would be most.

Perhaps, but until the publication of Charles Darwin's "Origin of Species", most atheists had no idea about the origin of life. The establishment of evolution within the scientific community also invalidated the Christian God.

Sure, the two are not the same, and it is possible for an atheist to question the theory of evolution and for a theist to accept evolution. However, most atheists tend to be evolutionists and most theists tend to be creationists.

Actually, I thought that Lyell's work (Principles of Geology Volume 1 (or via: amazon.co.uk) and Volume 2 (or via: amazon.co.uk)) was supposed to be the real 'blow' against Christianity in the Age of Reason. The

Uniformitarianism aspects blow away the dating and 'geological miracles' of the Christian creation myth, thus giving hard scientific fact to counter supernatural claims. Darwin's 'Origins' was just one more in a long list of scientific 'exposés' of how the natural world works -without- miracles.

It does work nicely with a 'watchmaker' god, hence the appeal of ID in our modern world for those who know 'just enough' (or not quite enough) of the science we use everyday.

I do find it interesting that Afdave keeps looking to break all the natural laws the rest of the world recognizes in order to put his god above science rather than working with it, huh? :huh:

Joan of Bark · 08-10-2007, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Yes, I have read it, of course. I am now slowly (so very, very slowly) re-reading the NT in Greek.

One comment on an earlier point. It was pointed out that the bible was the all-time best-seller. I would like to oppose that point. While it may be true that it has sold 6 billion copies, look at the time it has taken it to do so! It is an abysmal performance record. Let's say it has been available for 2000 years. I know it has been longer for some of the books and slightly fewer for others, this is not important since my point will be amply illustrated even without the accuracy. This comes out to about 3 million copies per year! Harry Potter and the Half-blood Prince, just for an example, blows the bible away with more than 21 million copies sold per year. Let's check the list again in 2000 years and see where other books are at after an equal amount of time. My money is on Rowling over god, anytime.

Julian

Also, many of those Bibles were freebies, courtesy of Gideons and others.

08-10-2007, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Also, many of those Bibles were freebies, courtesy of Gideons and others.

I stayed in a country pub recently. There was a bloody Gideon bible in the room. I felt much better after putting it outside. Couldn't have slept properly otherwise.

Lugubert · 08-10-2007, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Yes, I have read it, of course. I am now slowly (so very, very slowly) re-reading the NT in Greek.

One comment on an earlier point. It was pointed out that the bible was the all-time best-seller. I would like to oppose that point. While it may be true that it has sold 6 billion copies, look at the time it has taken it to do so! It is an abysmal performance record. Let's say it has been available for 2000 years. I know it has been longer for some of the books and slightly fewer for others, this is not important since my point will be amply illustrated even without the accuracy. This comes out to about 3 million copies per year! Harry Potter and the Half-blood Prince, just for an example, blows the bible away with more than 21 million copies sold per year. Let's check the list again in 2000 years and see where other books are at after an equal amount of time. My money is on Rowling over god, anytime.

Julian

Also, many of those Bibles were freebies, courtesy of Gideons and others.

Would make an interesting thread on its own. In early 2004, the total number of published copies of the Chinese dictionary Xinhua Zidian exceeded 400 million. That's in less than 50 years. I still own more Bibles than Xinhua Zidian, though, (20 vs. 4) and no HP.

Katastrophikus · 08-10-2007, 04:22 AM

I've read the bible, and I still do. I have four copies next to my bed, right next to my Dawkins and under my Call of Chthulhu books. What amazes me the most is how little of it people actually do know.

"They" assume that the atheists they meet are that way because of too little biblical exposure, when the revers is actually true.

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08-09-2007, 06:16 AM	#333
Faid Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 1,057	Well, dave? Read any "evilushun" books cover to cover lately? No? Bye, dave.

08-09-2007, 10:56 AM	#335
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	Yes, I have read it, of course. I am now slowly (so very, very slowly) re-reading the NT in Greek. One comment on an earlier point. It was pointed out that the bible was the all-time best-seller. I would like to oppose that point. While it may be true that it has sold 6 billion copies, look at the time it has taken it to do so! It is an abysmal performance record. Let's say it has been available for 2000 years. I know it has been longer for some of the books and slightly fewer for others, this is not important since my point will be amply illustrated even without the accuracy. This comes out to about 3 million copies per year! Harry Potter and the Half-blood Prince, just for an example, blows the bible away with more than 21 million copies sold per year. Let's check the list again in 2000 years and see where other books are at after an equal amount of time. My money is on Rowling over god, anytime. Julian

08-10-2007, 04:22 AM	#340
Katastrophikus Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: PE, South Africa Posts: 499	I've read the bible, and I still do. I have four copies next to my bed, right next to my Dawkins and under my Call of Chthulhu books. What amazes me the most is how little of it people actually do know. "They" assume that the atheists they meet are that way because of too little biblical exposure, when the revers is actually true.

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