Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 07-02-2004, 07:08 PM

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Originally Posted by diana

I agree with you that the "dots" they're connecting should be accurate--which is why I've requested evidence above and beyond "everybody knows" and "scholars said/knew" in another thread recently concerning this book.

By "join-the-dots" arguments, I mean that F&G don't attempt to show relevance. Even if their facts were right (e.g. both Jesus and Dionysus wore purple at some stage, they both had long hair), they leave it up to the reader to assume the relevance of the connection.

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The issue of Jesus' hair/beard length is quite insignificant, IMO.

I agree! But it is F&G who raise that, and many similar points, in their book. As I've said earlier, if you concentrate on specifics, you can be accused of "missing the big picture". But if you concentrate on the big picture, you can be accused of ignoring the evidence. I'm not sure if there is a way out of this dilemma.

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There are far more important things to question, such as interpretation of symbolism and how we know what the various stages of mystery initiation were and what they were called, etc.

I agree.

Ted Hoffman · 07-04-2004, 03:06 AM

Celsus,
First of all, please accept my apologies for my earlier tone.

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Because Albright made the same mistake through the 1930s-60s with the Nuzi and Mari tablets, and it wasn't till T.L. Thompson corrected him in 1974(!) in a comprehensive monograph that this was recognised as the question begging it was.

Point taken. However, I was questioning the link between the idea of being a responsible scholar and 'emphasising parallels without discussing differences'. I didn't find it in The Oxford Handbook of Responsible Scholarship. Its good they have admitted it was not an academic work and was written as a popular book - authors have different goals and different approaches.

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...Can you see why it doesn't deserve a serious treatment?

Yes sir.

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But I suppose you did succeed in making me pull it off the shelf.

I guess I can hold onto that as a small achievement

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But anyway, follow the discussion with Jacob and me if you want to watch a nice little ruck.

You mean ruckus?

And the following passage from your review is too juicy not to reproduce here:

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Very thought-provoking, and highly recommended. You'll have to read the book yourself to find out what the only (two!) differences between Jesus and the Pagan mystery gods were, although you'll probably guess one. This book is difficult to dismiss, whether by Christians or people (like me) who accept a historical figure of Jesus.

Heh, Heh. There is nothing like a little irony. Talk about embarrasment. Heh, heh. Popular work.

GakuseiDon · 07-04-2004, 09:37 PM

I just saw F&G's new book, Jesus and the Lost Goddess : The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians, in the bookshop.

On the cover is a picture of a female Christ-like figure being crucified on an ankh. The figure represents Sophia, the Wisdom Goddess. So, I thought, what about Osiris-Dionysus being crucified? I checked the index, and found this on Chapter 9:

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Jesus suspended on a cross echoes the archetypal Christ suspended on the Cross of Light. Christ is the embodiment of the pleroma. As such he is securely on one side of the Cross which divides the pleroma from the kenoma. But through the ignorant passions of Sophia, some part of Consciousness, and therefore of Christ, has become trapped on the other side of the Cross. Christ is, therefore, suspended on the Cross of Light, in the pleroma as the Christ and in the kenoma as the lost seeds of spiritual essence. This mythic motif is based on Plato, who taught that the 'Son of God' is 'suspended crosswise in the universe'.

Christ, representing universal Consciousness, embodies all the archetypes of the pleroma united through Gnosis and is, therefore, a symbol of the whole make up of many parts. Christ is the one Consciousness which appears as the many separate seeds of Consciousness which are trapped in ignorance and seeking liberation through living a human life. The Oneness of the Christ is fragmented when it passes beyond the Cross of Light in the kenoma. Drawing on imagery from the myth of the Pagan Godman Osiris, (and his Greek alter-ego Dionysus), The Book of the Logos imagines this as the Christ being dismembered into many limbs.

So, instead of Christ being crucified - just like Dionysus-Osiris - we now have Christ being dismembered - just like Dionysus-Osiris!

Granted, they repeat the 'Dionysus hung on a tree' nonsense, but at least they have moved away from saying he was crucified.

They also don't appear to refer to the amulet of Dionysus-Osiris on the cross that is on the cover of TJM at all in their new book.

Magdlyn · 07-06-2004, 02:12 AM

Hi GD,

Jesus and the Lost Goddess isn't particularly new, it is from 2001.

What makes you think the figure on the front is Sophia? Does it say that somewhere in the book? It looks like Christ to me. Loincloth, crown of thorns, the whole bit. I do not believe there is anything about Sophoia being crucified in gnostic myth, but correct me if I am wrong. I do own, and have read the book, twice.

GakuseiDon · 07-06-2004, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Hi GD,

Jesus and the Lost Goddess isn't particularly new, it is from 2001.

What makes you think the figure on the front is Sophia? Does it say that somewhere in the book? It looks like Christ to me. Loincloth, crown of thorns, the whole bit. I do not believe there is anything about Sophoia being crucified in gnostic myth, but correct me if I am wrong. I do own, and have read the book, twice.

Oh. I thought that the figure on the cross on the cover had female breasts... perhaps that says more about me than about F&G???

Magdlyn · 07-06-2004, 03:44 AM

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Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Oh. I thought that the figure on the cross on the cover had female breasts... perhaps that says more about me than about F&G???

LOL. Check yourself, dude.

BTW, as I write this, I have 333 posts, you have 666. Woo-eee-ooo...

ichabod crane · 07-06-2004, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

BTW, as I write this, I have 333 posts, you have 666. Woo-eee-ooo...

I knew there was something fishy about this GakuseiDon character ... you can even reorganize the letters of his name to spell "God is a nuke"!

Get thee behind me Satan ...

GakuseiDon · 07-06-2004, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Hi GD,

Jesus and the Lost Goddess isn't particularly new, it is from 2001.

What makes you think the figure on the front is Sophia? Does it say that somewhere in the book? It looks like Christ to me. Loincloth, crown of thorns, the whole bit. I do not believe there is anything about Sophoia being crucified in gnostic myth, but correct me if I am wrong. I do own, and have read the book, twice.

Actually, now that I look at it again, I'm sure it is supposed to be a female on the ankh. The separated breasts, the high rib-cage, long hair but no beard. I don't think I'm that sex-starved!

Here is a link that shows the cover, enlarged: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1400...48#reader-link

What do you think??? Is that a female, or is GDon crazy?

GakuseiDon · 07-06-2004, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ichabod crane

I knew there was something fishy about this GakuseiDon character ... you can even reorganize the letters of his name to spell "God is a nuke"!

Get thee behind me Satan ...

Hey, I never saw that! Well picked up!

Ted Hoffman · 07-06-2004, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Actually, now that I look at it again, I'm sure it is supposed to be a female on the ankh. The separated breasts, the high rib-cage, long hair but no beard. I don't think I'm that sex-starved!

Here is a link that shows the cover, enlarged: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1400...48#reader-link

What do you think??? Is that a female, or is GDon crazy?

I think its a woman. The long hair and head tilted shyly...cheekbones not so sharp. Legs crossed decorously. The hips are not wide enough to give her the sensuous voluptuousness I would expect from a woman who personifies wisdom. Plus, she could do with a sexier cleavage and much conspicuous (and heavy) breasts. Wait, are those nipples? And yes, instead of the cubed abs, a softer, rounder pouch would do.
Can't tell if there is a bulge around the groin area...too much cloth there...

Am I getting suggestive enough? Or shall we just call me - um - vulgar?

I didn't start it <looks accusingly at GDon>.

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07-06-2004, 02:12 AM	#34
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	Hi GD, Jesus and the Lost Goddess isn't particularly new, it is from 2001. What makes you think the figure on the front is Sophia? Does it say that somewhere in the book? It looks like Christ to me. Loincloth, crown of thorns, the whole bit. I do not believe there is anything about Sophoia being crucified in gnostic myth, but correct me if I am wrong. I do own, and have read the book, twice.

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